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tohdom
10-07-2009, 06:18 AM
Lost Rewatch Episode Discussion for "The Beginning of the End"
(Oct 5 - Oct 11)

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Beginning_of_the_End

MM0602
10-14-2009, 03:34 AM
Good start to my favourite season (3 being a close second). Rewatching it I really understand why people say it doesn't feel like a season premiere. It's still a good episode, though. It was good to see Charlie again the first time around, so soon after his death. I do hope we get to see more of Claire's mourning somehow in season 6, because we really didn't get much of her in this episode (or season even). Between this episode and Through the Looking Glass, Jack vows to kill like 10 different people XD. It was a bit much for me. He's starting to go crazy, and I think this is when I started not really liking him so much anymore.

beccabee
10-15-2009, 07:13 AM
Haha. I never noticed how much Jack threatened people in those episodes. Now I want to watch them and do my own count. *devil face*

It's funny- I hated him on my first watch, and have liked him more and more with each consecutive rewatch. He's still an idiot, but a much more sympathetic one. :P

imbeanie
10-15-2009, 02:50 PM
This isn't really relevant to this episode, but I wasn't sure where else to post this.
Looking ahead to the full Rewatch schedule, I see that we are to begin Season 5 on November 9, although the DVD/BlueRay release is not until December 9. Is the assumption that everyone DVRed/Tivoed all of Season 5? I didn't, so I will be playing catch-up in December, and not posting a lot until then.

imbeanie
10-15-2009, 03:02 PM
Beccabee-- How funny: we're having just the opposite response here, wondering how we ever thought Jack was heroic and not just an ego-driven nut. We "affectionately" call out "a$$jack!" in the manner of the Aflac duck whenever he does something particularly ridiculous. (And not to start an all-out war, but I think a lot of our dislike for Jack is not particularly because of the character or writing, but because of Matthew Fox, who although good, seems just a little out of his league, acting-wise. Locke and Benjamin [among others, and Others] are far more over-the-top characters, but O'Quinn and Emerson do such an amazing job, it doesn't matter. Foxy just seems like he is trying so hard to emote, he comes off looking constipated.)

MM0602
10-17-2009, 05:59 AM
This isn't really relevant to this episode, but I wasn't sure where else to post this.
Looking ahead to the full Rewatch schedule, I see that we are to begin Season 5 on November 9, although the DVD/BlueRay release is not until December 9. Is the assumption that everyone DVRed/Tivoed all of Season 5? I didn't, so I will be playing catch-up in December, and not posting a lot until then.

Well now that the blogs have been completely abandoned the schedule is a bit pointless. I won't be starting season 5 until the DVD comes out either, but I doubt we'll miss much discussion anyway. I am trying to drag out season 4 until then though... I need constant Lost until May :P

flight316
10-18-2009, 12:18 AM
I think this episode is vastly underrated. It builds up well and has some awesome moments. One of those episodes that can probably get you hooked on the show. It did annoy me a bit how we got almost zero mourning over Charlie's death from Jack and Kate in season 4, but I guess we can blame the writers strike.

And lol MM0602 I always noticed how many people Jack vowed/tried to kill in these two episodes. Plus he really wanted to stay behind and blow up the others. I think he just really felt like f****in killin somebody.

tohdom
10-24-2009, 05:17 PM
maybe i forgot something about the season 4, but why Hurley says he's sorry he went with Locke, and that he should have gone with Jack instead?

dubmdell
10-25-2009, 02:32 AM
It's because Hurley realized a little too late (like Sawyer, Kate, and Claire) that Locke was crazy and Ben was dangerous. Even when Hurley was forced to stay with a specific purpose in mind, he didn't fulfill that role (Locke's dream did), so his being forced to stay was meaningless and reinforced how crazy/dangerous (respectively) Locke and Ben are. Hurley undermined Jack's authority in the parting of the camps and led a number of people who were sitting on the proverbial fence to make the mistake of following Locke to the barracks. Of course, the irony is that if Hurley hadn't followed Locke, he would still be on the Island.

jbryan1984
10-27-2009, 01:11 AM
this isn't really relevant to this episode, but i wasn't sure where else to post this.
Looking ahead to the full rewatch schedule, i see that we are to begin season 5 on november 9, although the dvd/blueray release is not until december 9. Is the assumption that everyone dvred/tivoed all of season 5? I didn't, so i will be playing catch-up in december, and not posting a lot until then.

hulu.com

Dr. Chameleon
10-28-2009, 02:35 AM
Well now that the blogs have been completely abandoned the schedule is a bit pointless. I won't be starting season 5 until the DVD comes out either, but I doubt we'll miss much discussion anyway. I am trying to drag out season 4 until then though... I need constant Lost until May :P

I'm in the same boat, and where's the interest in the rewatch? I buzzed through S4 pretty fast and while I still find some elements of the freighter folk confounding and irritating, on the whole I have a much higher opinion of S4 than I did before.

One problem is the way the story is told out of order and with critical elements not filled in until S5, while introducing a lot of new characters who aren't fleshed out very well. It's a bit more watchable once we've seen more of them in S5. But Abbadon, for example, is sort of vague. Why would he harass Hurley about survivors of the crash? Unless it's just part of Widmore's attempt to encourage everyone to go back (I'm still fascinated by the fact that Widmore and Ben both want pretty much the same thing). And actually here Hurley is the first to pressure Jack into going back, followed by Locke, then Ben, as we'll find out later.

There's a lot of stuff here though. Notice that whispers accompany the cabin appearance, and it almost seems as though Hurley is cut off from the group by unseen forces. Whose eye was that in the window (I know they wanted Hurley to see himself at one point, was it supposed to be his own)? Also Locke appears right after Hurley makes the cabin disappear, is that timing significant, was the cabin trying to reach Locke?

Jack pulling the trigger still amazes me, it took awhile for that to sink in and then it hits hard.

imbeanie
10-28-2009, 04:46 PM
After freeze framing, etc., I'm pretty convinced the eye was Locke's. Especially when he arrives on the scene just minutes later.

MM0602
10-29-2009, 03:03 AM
Yeah, when rewatching this I also thought it looked a LOT like Locke's eye. I'm pretty sure it isn't actually Terry O'Quinn... but that'd be kind of interesting wouldn't it? Possibly a resurrected future Locke? Not that I'm rooting for that :p

Nathan182
11-02-2009, 03:11 AM
How did Locke know Charlie was dead and what it said on his hand? Wasn't he on the other side of the island n shit? That makes me think it was him in the Cabin and that he was getting information from Christian or something...although that would play nicely into the "Locke was 'the man in black' all along" theory which I hate.

It did look a lot like his eye though and he shouldn't know about Charlie, did nobody else pick up on that? Or am I missing something?

MM0602
11-02-2009, 04:55 AM
I think we're meant to assume Hurley told him about Charlie off-screen

Jacob'sWiseOldMother
11-19-2009, 10:31 PM
Well, the start of season 4 didn't have that great of a beginning but we will never know what could "have been" if the writers would have had a whole season to work with. Thank goodness we got what we did out of this season!

The first thing that really stuck out for me was the title and the fact that the cabin moved. I think this was a significant thing that has been over looked so far. Having the people on the island able to "talk" again to the outside world seems to be a "beginning of the end" kind of thing to me. They have reconnected the "rabbit hole" to the outside world and now the island can be found again.

I always love the Hurley episodes! He is such a fun character to follow and in this episode we find out that Hurley too is special. The cabin draws him in for a reason that we still don't understand but it is oddly interrupted by John finding him in the jungle. I'm not sure if John was with the cabin(inside) or protecting Hurley from what was inside but I still think the eye we saw looked a lot like Issac of Uluru, the healer man from one of Rose's episodes.

Just when Jack thinks he is in control of things at last, we get to see Ben still maintain some control even tied to a tree! :p I caught a line from Jack to Claire that hinted at her not getting off the island when he tells her that he is only worried about missing a ride home on the helicopter. That is exactly what happened to Claire. Kate always manages to show up Jack and as usual he never listens to anyone else. :D

The scene with Abaddon and Hurley at Santa Rosa seems to be explained by the conversation in season 5 between Charles and John. Charles gives John the folders on the 06 and tells him he has been watching them.

Another thing I noticed was that Naomi must have took the knife out of her back and used it against Kate. Wow!! These people who seem to be dead and come back again and again are really tough!

Having the 2 groups meet up again at the cockpit was brilliant! They come together again only to be pulled apart in separate directions and views. Charlie's death was sort of brushed aside for this intense meeting of Jack and John. We get to see Jack lose it and pull the trigger on the gun. I know that John said it wasn't loaded but the look on Jack's face sort of said it all. I believe that it was loaded and once again the island(?) saved John's life. The best was Hurley's speech about Charlie reminding them all what he did for each and everyone of them. Whether or not anyone of them was safe with who they went with, was quickly changed when Ben chose to go with John's group and he KNEW he was putting them all in danger. Ben knew who was coming to the island...Keamy... and that he was after Ben.

It was nice to see Dom come back for another appearance with Hurley. I liked that the other patient saw Charlie too. It was almost as if they can see things that the rest of us can't and it doesn't make them crazy, only special.

Best Line: Charlie, "I am dead but I'm also here."
Best Scene: The cabin scene with Hurley and then he runs, stumbles and falls down only to open his eyes to John!

mattepntr
11-20-2009, 01:59 AM
Having the 2 groups meet up again at the cockpit was brilliant! They come together again only to be pulled apart in separate directions and views.

I LOVE the scene at the nose section. It's great on so many levels. It was a stroke of brilliance to have the survivors meet up (and separate) at the only remaining section of flight 815, the thing that brought them together and to the island in the first place. Just a great idea to set it there, it added so much to the moment.

And I LOVE the bit where Jack and Kate look into the wreckage-

KATE: Are you thinking of Charlie?

JACK: Feels like a hundred years ago that we came out here together. How did this happen?

IMO, it's the attention to great little emotional details like this that makes "Lost" such a great show. Jack and Kate are thinking back to the second day on the island, and reflecting on everything that's happened to them since. And it's only been 91 days for them, even though for us it's been four years!

Jacob'sWiseOldMother
11-24-2009, 01:08 AM
I LOVE the scene at the nose section. It's great on so many levels. It was a stroke of brilliance to have the survivors meet up (and separate) at the only remaining section of flight 815, the thing that brought them together and to the island in the first place. Just a great idea to set it there, it added so much to the moment.

And I LOVE the bit where Jack and Kate look into the wreckage-

KATE: Are you thinking of Charlie?

JACK: Feels like a hundred years ago that we came out here together. How did this happen?

IMO, it's the attention to great little emotional details like this that makes "Lost" such a great show. Jack and Kate are thinking back to the second day on the island, and reflecting on everything that's happened to them since. And it's only been 91 days for them, even though for us it's been four years!

Absolutely!! This is the same reason that with all the new shows we have seen this year...FlashForward....V... none of them even compare to Lost at all!!

Richard Was Here
11-27-2009, 10:11 PM
This is a pretty good episode...although I really hate the scene where Hugo tells Claire that Charlie is dead. Not Jorge Garcia's finest acting moment, IMO. His pained expression as he walks up to her looks so fake it's unbelievable.....even downright painful to watch. Plus, Desmond should have been the one to tell Claire - he was the one who had witnessed Charlie's death and could best answer all the questions she would no doubt have.

Also, Hugo gives that angry speech to everyone about how he's not following Jack, but 'following his friend', as if they had all intentionally ignored Charlie's sacrifice up to that point. But the thing is that at that point, none of the tower group except for Claire had even been told that Charlie was dead! I thought it was lame of Hugo to make that angry speech, when no one from the tower group (including Jack) even knew Charlie was dead yet.

Next - hurray for Daniel Faraday! Good to see him again after so long!

Final comment - pretty brave of Ben to go with Locke, considering that he shot him and left him for dead at the Dharma mass grave only a day or two before.

zeus22
11-29-2009, 05:57 PM
Beccabee-- How funny: we're having just the opposite response here, wondering how we ever thought Jack was heroic and not just an ego-driven nut. We "affectionately" call out "a$$jack!" in the manner of the Aflac duck whenever he does something particularly ridiculous. (And not to start an all-out war, but I think a lot of our dislike for Jack is not particularly because of the character or writing, but because of Matthew Fox, who although good, seems just a little out of his league, acting-wise. Locke and Benjamin [among others, and Others] are far more over-the-top characters, but O'Quinn and Emerson do such an amazing job, it doesn't matter. Foxy just seems like he is trying so hard to emote, he comes off looking constipated.)

I really find Foxy to be a much better actor than O'Quinn or Emerson, but to each his own.

The post above me makes a good point that no one in Jack's group even knew about Charlie's death, except for Claire, until Hurley's outburst. I do find Hurley a little annoying in this episode, like when Claire asks what happened to Charlie. "He was trying to help us." Thanks, Hurley, I think she already knew that much.

I also find it interesting that John says that if he and Hurley couldn't convince Jack's group to not call the freighter, than Charlie died for nothing. But it kinda seems like he died for nothing regardless if turning off the equipment in the Looking Glass would only lead to trouble.

I'd totally go with Jack's group. As Claire says later, "All we know is whose boat it isn't. Don't we want to find out whose boat it is?"

Jacob'sWiseOldMother
12-02-2009, 10:55 PM
This is a pretty good episode...although I really hate the scene where Hugo tells Claire that Charlie is dead. Not Jorge Garcia's finest acting moment, IMO. His pained expression as he walks up to her looks so fake it's unbelievable.....even downright painful to watch. Plus, Desmond should have been the one to tell Claire - he was the one who had witnessed Charlie's death and could best answer all the questions she would no doubt have.

Also, Hugo gives that angry speech to everyone about how he's not following Jack, but 'following his friend', as if they had all intentionally ignored Charlie's sacrifice up to that point. But the thing is that at that point, none of the tower group except for Claire had even been told that Charlie was dead! I thought it was lame of Hugo to make that angry speech, when no one from the tower group (including Jack) even knew Charlie was dead yet.

Next - hurray for Daniel Faraday! Good to see him again after so long!

Final comment - pretty brave of Ben to go with Locke, considering that he shot him and left him for dead at the Dharma mass grave only a day or two before.

I guess I sort of disagree that it was brave of Ben to go with John to the barracks. Actually, that is exactly where he wanted to be since he knew that these freighter guys were after him in the first place. He keeps conning John over and over to get John to believe him just enough to not kill him as we have seen in the preceding episodes. Ben needs the protection of the barracks and this is exactly where he needed to be. He also knows that he can release the smoke monster for protection and so John is the least of his worries right now.

Jesus_Stick
12-17-2009, 11:18 AM
Call me crazy but knowing what we know now with Jacob able to come off the island and the man in black seemingly able to copy/take control of dead bodies, is it possible that Charlie that shows up here is actually the Man in Black?

He urges Hurley to go back to the island (something that the man in black needs for his loophole, he is able to be seen by the other patient and he makes mention of the fact that he is "dead but also here".

It's an interesting thought which ties in nicely with the whole Locke situation. I'll be interested to know your thoughts!

Dr. Chameleon
12-17-2009, 07:18 PM
Call me crazy but knowing what we know now with Jacob able to come off the island and the man in black seemingly able to copy/take control of dead bodies, is it possible that Charlie that shows up here is actually the Man in Black?

He urges Hurley to go back to the island (something that the man in black needs for his loophole, he is able to be seen by the other patient and he makes mention of the fact that he is "dead but also here".

It's an interesting thought which ties in nicely with the whole Locke situation. I'll be interested to know your thoughts!

It's certainly possible. It's hard not to think that Christian was the Man in Black on the island, so he also could've been Yemi, and Charlie if he can travel off island, which I'm assuming he can (just about everyone else is able to, so why wouldn't he be?). I'm even more curious to know if Dave was the man in black.

NoMoreFun
12-18-2009, 10:37 AM
They should rename this episode "Through the Looking Glass (Part 3)", because that's what it felt like on the rewatch.

locke-n-load
01-06-2010, 10:05 PM
It's certainly possible. It's hard not to think that Christian was the Man in Black on the island, so he also could've been Yemi, and Charlie if he can travel off island, which I'm assuming he can (just about everyone else is able to, so why wouldn't he be?). I'm even more curious to know if Dave was the man in black.
THANKYOU AGAIN DR. C this is something ive been contemplating for a long time about MIB also influencing off-island events. I def believe he could be dave being as dave tried to keep hurley in the institution and tried to make him kill himself on the island. It would also fit quite nicely if he was Charlie in this episode, since all of the events seem to favor MIB's agenda. Im expecting to see a very similar episode to jacob's featuring MIB taking on many personalities to bring his on players in to the chess match.

Dr. Chameleon
01-06-2010, 10:18 PM
THANKYOU AGAIN DR. C this is something ive been contemplating for a long time about MIB also influencing off-island events. I def believe he could be dave being as dave tried to keep hurley in the institution and tried to make him kill himself on the island. It would also fit quite nicely if he was Charlie in this episode, since all of the events seem to favor MIB's agenda. Im expecting to see a very similar episode to jacob's featuring MIB taking on many personalities to bring his on players in to the chess match.

Indeed. The Dave thing would make a lot of sense, especially since Hurley was "found" by the cabin later, making a further connection between him and MiB.

I think Hurley poses a threat to MiB not only because Hurley was chosen by Jacob, but because Hurley is one of the few people on the island who thinks for himself and acts out of an inner sense of right and wrong, not because he's told to or thinks it will benefit him somehow (treating life as a game like Locke). About the only time he falters is when he helps Locke trick Sayid and Kate (in "The Economist"). Even driving the guy down with the van was in an effort to save Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Bernard, and Sayid, although I wish Hurley had managed not to kill anyone on purpose at any point during the show.

sdorian
01-08-2010, 05:38 AM
Beccabee-- How funny: we're having just the opposite response here, wondering how we ever thought Jack was heroic and not just an ego-driven nut. same feeling here. The first time I watched Lost, I immediately fell for Locke. Charlie, Sawyer, and Kate probably all tied for 2nd place for me. It wasn't that I disliked Jack first time around. I liked him well enough and did see him as always trying to be heroic.

On my rewatch, I'm finding that I like Jack less and less, seeing his actions more clearly as "needing to fix" and needing to be in charge. and sometimes rather mean and uncompromising, even authoritarian (Jack in charge). Which is why I applauded Sawyers gun con to rebel against authority. And applauded efforts to incorporate the group: Hurley sharing the food, Arzt, Locke invited everyone who wants to go to the Pearl (or all the Others much later). Second time 'round I still absolutely love Locke. Charlie, Sawyer, Kate of course. and also really appreciating Hurley too. Ben's a character I love to hate...I keep wishing someone would kill him! and, especially on rewatch, I can't stand Juliet. Still, overall, I applaud the Lost writers for creating complex characters, who you can simultaneously love and hate, deplore, and admire. :)

sdorian
01-08-2010, 05:58 AM
When did Tom have time to sneak onto the mainland to get Michael?

And what's the deal with Abaddon? He's working with Widmore ostensibly to "get people where they need to be". Widmore’s trying to help Locke get all the people together so Widmore can find the island, right? But Widmore could find it via the Looking Glass. Or does Widmore want to kill all of the Oceanic Six? Maybe we’ll never really know what Abaddon wanted with Hurley (to bring him to Locke or kill him) since Abaddon’s dead. But I’m sure we’ll find out more about Widmore vs. Ben in season 6.

I just now noticed someone else at the mental hospital saw Charlie, he pointed him out to Hugo.

sdorian
01-08-2010, 06:03 AM
freigher suspicions:
Des, Hurley etc. know Naomi was lying because of Charlie. Ben knows the freighter's bad news because of Michael (which he hasn't revealed). How does Locke know (before he talks to Hurley) that Naomi was lying? Did he have a chat with the island? What did older Walt tell him?

Dr. Chameleon
01-08-2010, 06:27 PM
freigher suspicions:
Des, Hurley etc. know Naomi was lying because of Charlie. Ben knows the freighter's bad news because of Michael (which he hasn't revealed). How does Locke know (before he talks to Hurley) that Naomi was lying? Did he have a chat with the island? What did older Walt tell him?

I'm hoping that's something they'll revisit once we know what's really going on with the "living dead" characters, visions, etc. Was Walt really Walt there, or something else, and what *exactly* did he tell John?

Living_Locke
05-15-2010, 05:21 PM
Just rewatched this now, definitely an underrated episode.

TheBear
09-01-2010, 04:47 AM
I think this episodes marks the last time all our losties are together in the series.

Hopelessly Lost
10-19-2010, 07:22 PM
I just rewatched this today & I like how it just picks up after Looking Glass.
The eye in the cabin definitely looked like Locke to me. Who else could it be? Maybe he's getting his info about the freighter from Jacob (aka MiB) in the cabin.
I also like seeing Charlie right after he dies visiting Hurley. It very well could be MiB, but Hurley does see dead people. It definitely bothers me that it isn't explained that Charlie talked to Penny directly. The whole story is never shared with everyone which happens often on this show.

fade23
11-07-2010, 08:15 AM
I just rewatched this today & I like how it just picks up after Looking Glass.
The eye in the cabin definitely looked like Locke to me. Who else could it be? Maybe he's getting his info about the freighter from Jacob (aka MiB) in the cabin.
I also like seeing Charlie right after he dies visiting Hurley. It very well could be MiB, but Hurley does see dead people. It definitely bothers me that it isn't explained that Charlie talked to Penny directly. The whole story is never shared with everyone which happens often on this show.

Pretty sure the eye is actually Carlton Cuse. I think its confirmed by him, and im sure its somewhere on LP.
I dont think it was MIB, I dont think MIB could project himself in the real world.

vincero
02-15-2011, 01:37 PM
Could Jacob be Charlie? I mean he is able to get of the Island and touch ppl. But I can`t remember another scene where Jacob isn`t Jacob... Maybe he knows that MIB "found a way" to kill him, so he has to use all his powers.

Hopelessly Lost
02-16-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't think Jacob ever disguised as someone else. I am guessing he travelled to/from island like Richard & eventually Hurley did. He wouldn't have the same power/capabilities of the smoke monster.

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