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tohdom
10-19-2009, 07:02 AM
Lost Rewatch Episode Discussion for "Ji Yeon"
(Oct 19 - Oct 25)

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ji_Yeon

Dr. Chameleon
10-28-2009, 10:31 PM
Argh! I had another weird timing out problem where my post disappeared. Not that anyone's reading these...

So there are a couple of elements to this episode that encapsulate what bothers me about season four, namely consistency (let's not even get into the horrible news about Jin). They were telling the story out of order, and in an incomplete version (certain major holes aren't filled until S5), while introducing a lot of new characters, one of the most disappointing of which was Captain Gault. In "The Constant," Minkowski suggested that Gault was dangerous ("when the captain finds out..."). Now we meet the captain, but before that Frank warns Sayid and Desmond that they don't want to talk to him, and they get a note from Michael saying not to trust him. Even after we meet the less-than-imposing Gault, the doctor says "just don't piss him off." Wow. This guy must be a total badass. But no. The worst thing we see him do is beat one of his crew... in order to protect him. Keamy is the badass, even if he comes off as kind of a goofy hillbilly until he gets to the island and starts taking people out. Why this buildup with no payoff? If anything, Gault turns out to be pretty helpful.

Between this and all the lying that Dan and Charlotte do, it seems like the freighter folk were not very well fleshed out ahead of time, and that drives me crazy. Sure, Miles says "80% of the people on this boat are lying," but Dan is obviously a pretty good guy, so why does he never warn the Losties that, for example, Ben is trying to kill them all with poison gas or Keamy and his crew are coming to shoot everyone? I suppose he could be *afraid* -- but for the most part it just doesn't add up. See also Gault's belief that Ben faked the wreckage of flight 815 when Miles is shown to be aware of Widmore's connection in S5 "Some Like It Hoth." Am I nitpicking? Does this stuff bother anyone else?

Kate even comments on it:

JIN: What happened?

KATE: You mean before or after the redhead knocked me out?

[Sun looks at Charlotte, and turns back to Kate]

SUN: She hit you?

KATE: When I ran into them on my way back from Locke's camp.

SUN: Why would she do that?

KATE: I guess she didn't wanna have to explain why she was on her way to a poison gas factory.

Seriously? Because she was going to *stop* it, why wouldn't she tell them? Juliet inexplicably lied and ran off in that episode, too. I feel like the characters behavior doesn't make any sense, and these things are in there just to create drama. I'd rather have the characters make sense, even if it means they get along once in ahile. I mean, come on.

Here, again, Daniel won't tell Sun who's in charge. Why? Because he doesn't know if it's Naomi, Gault, or Keamy? I just don't understand why he's so tight-lipped when ultimately he means them no harm.

My original version of this was more coherent and less whiny, so please forgive me. :rolleyes:

imbeanie
10-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Hey Doc-- At least one person is reading. We're going off the Rewatch timetable and spacing out our viewing of Season 4 to get to the Season 5 DVD release, so I'm a little behind. I think that a lot of the disappointments you have in this season (and I'm right there with you!) are due to the writer's strike; I trust the creative team would have done more with a lot of your points if they had had a full season.

Dr. Chameleon
10-29-2009, 06:17 PM
Hey Doc-- At least one person is reading. We're going off the Rewatch timetable and spacing out our viewing of Season 4 to get to the Season 5 DVD rel;ease, so I'm a little behind. I think that a lot of the disappointments you have in this season (and I'm right there with you!) are due to the writer's strike; I trust the creative would have done more with a lot of your points if they had had a full season.

While I don't think the strike *helped* in any way, the big delay was between Meet Kevin Johnson and The Shape of Things to Come, so I still think that they set out on this season without having the freighter folk strongly defined, which was a mistake. In any event, like I said, I've warmed to the season and I'm trying to let go, but it's tough when you've got this level of obsession. :o

I should've slowed down, too, but we've been horribly sick the past couple of weeks so we had a lot of TV time. Also I found being able to rush through this season without pause helped it flow better. Time to check out the bonus features...

tohdom
11-06-2009, 06:54 PM
Dr. Chameleon keep the rewatch alive! I don't post much, but i am reading you always.

ps
lol. i forgot who is the sixth oceanic survivor :) don't tell me, it would be a surprise :)

Dr. Chameleon
11-06-2009, 06:56 PM
Dr. Chameleon keep the rewatch alive! I don't post much, but i am reading you always.

Ha! Thanks. I'm working on "Cabin Fever" now. Slow day at work. :p

MM0602
11-09-2009, 02:36 AM
Haha despite Dr's complaints... this is one of my favourite episodes :p I guess part of it is because I LOVE Sun and Jin so much. So naturally this episode always makes me constantly tear up. It's such a mean move from the writers because in Jin's last flashback you think we're finally going to get a happy ending to a flashforward but then... oh, he's not going to see Sun? Oh, he's only been married 2 months?? Oh, Sun's visiting his grave!? :(

Said it before and I'll say it again, if Sun and Jin don't get a happy ending I'll hate the writers!

Dr. Chameleon
11-10-2009, 12:51 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again, if Sun and Jin don't get a happy ending I'll hate the writers!

Oh, yeah. I've been so bogged down in plot details / mysteries I haven't even had time to fret about what's going to become of all these characters. Scary thought!

karategrrl
11-13-2009, 04:54 AM
We're spacing out S4 too...I don't want too much lag time. We'll watch this over the weekend...I did wonder after seeing S5...What did Eloise tell her son and what didn't she.

karategrrl
11-14-2009, 07:04 PM
So...The captain thinks Ben staged the plane wreck, but we know from Miles it was Charles..So is the capt. lying or does he really believe it's Ben? The other thing...How did Sun explain her pregnancy...If Jin died in the crash, how does she explain a full term baby? I can't remember if that was addressed in the extras(conspiracy theory)...I better watch that again.

MM0602
11-15-2009, 12:32 AM
Well it's believable I think cuz from September 22 to January 1 when they were rescued is a bit under 4 months. The media would probably just assume the baby was born late.

Plus she wasn't living in the US so I'm sure she didn't get as much media coverage as the other O6.

Edit: I've decided the last scene with Sun in the cemetary is the saddest scene in the show ever. :(

Richard Was Here
12-01-2009, 03:22 AM
This is one of my favorite Sun & Jin episodes. So touching in a number of different parts. I love the conversation between Jin and Bernard out in the boat...I love when Jin comes back and forgives Sun for the affair...and of course, I always cry when Sun and Hurley are at Jin's grave.

From this episode, can we assume that Jin is one of the people that WILL die during season 6? I sure hope not, and that we can call this bit of the episode a 'possible future' and nothing more.

What a surprise when the panda turns out to for the ambassador's grandson! Didn't see that and Jin's grave coming!

zeus22
12-09-2009, 02:33 AM
I think the ending of this episode was probably the most confusing moment in the history of the show for me.

I share some of the frustrations about the inconsistencies mentioned earlier? Why did Michael warn Sayid and Desmond about the captain? Why was he banging pipes together? Was this him messing up the engines? Why did Dr. Ray have a scar on his face that wasn't there in "The Constant"? Why was there blood on the wall in Sayid and Desmond's new room?

Weird stuff that we'll never get answers to. Oh well, this is my favorite Sun/Jin episode.

JulietDetonatesMyHeart
12-09-2009, 02:45 AM
Yeah, I don't get the "don't trust the captain" sign. I think Mike was just playa hating lol

Jacob'sWiseOldMother
12-09-2009, 11:13 PM
This is my least favorite episode of season 4 but it did have a wonderful twist to Sun and Jin's off island story line at least!!

My take on Captain Gault is that the people brought on the freighter really didn't know if this guy was good or not. They all knew that Keamy was bad news from his "fun" target practicing on the ship so I'm thinking they all assumed Gault was just as bad as Keamy was. Charles hired both of them but I think he gave Keamy more information than Gault. This is the trouble with the whole freighter folk/science crew/removing Ben story line is that we never got a lot of confirmation as to who knew exactly what about this mission of Charles Widmore. The TV viewers are left to sort out the mess and in the end of it all, TPTB tell us that it was indeed C.W. who put the plane in the trench.

I think the whole premise was that we were to believe that all these people on the freighter were "bad news" for the losties but in the end, some of them were "good people" like Ben told Michael in their radio conversation. I also think it was a way to make us wonder if Charles was the true bad guy on Lost and not so much Ben.

I am still trying to figure how much time difference there is between the freighter and the island. Sun tells Jin that Sayid and Desmond have been gone for 3 days but we know that isn't the same on the boat. After going through season 4, I am thinking it is a 3 to 1 ratio. 3 days on the island equal 1 day on the freighter.

I thought the best scene of this episode was when Jin has made Sun supper and he is a completely different man than when he first came to the island. He has learned from the past and is that man who Sun first fell in love with so long ago. The scene of Sun and Hurley visiting the grave site was touching but I thought the presence of Hurley seemed odd. I understand that Sun blamed Jack and probably Kate to some extent for Jin's death and that she was shunning most of the 06 but to me when Hurley shows up at her door after the birth was poorly written.

Careless
12-22-2009, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I don't get the "don't trust the captain" sign. I think Mike was just playa hating lol

I think that the missing episodes from the writers strike forced them to remove character development for the captain, leaving the attempted buildup without any payoff. Add another 7 episodes and they'd have a lot more time to work with.

Dr. Chameleon
12-22-2009, 12:41 AM
I think that the missing episodes from the writers strike forced them to remove character development for the captain, leaving the attempted buildup without any payoff. Add another 7 episodes and they'd have a lot more time to work with.

They actually only trimmed the season by 3 episodes:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Writers_Guild_of_America#2007.E2.80.9308_strike

However, the cut off was at "Meet Kevin Johnson" which left off right at the point where we might be shown what a badass Gault was. After the strike-induced break we got two episodes with no activity on the Kahana, and then "Cabin Fever" where Gault seems more like a pussycat and they ramp up Keamy's badassery. So...fair enough, maybe they did get a little screwed by the strike rather than their own bad writing/planning.

Clearly I gotta research more before I go throwing complaints around...who says TV is rotting my brain? :D

imbeanie
12-22-2009, 03:24 PM
Lots of little "what?" moments in this midseason batch of episodes. One annoyance to mean was all the discussion of the black box from 815 during this and a few of the previous episodes, which also went nowhere. It can't be found, it has been found, its on the Kahana (!?).... Then nothing. It's as if it was meant to reveal or provoke something, and then it was dropped. Also, I don't recall if it is in this episode or the next (we watched four in a row last night now that all the holiday hoopla is caught up) and I thought it was careless of the writers to say twice in the same episode "it's been three days..." [Sun says it on the beach, then Sayid on the freighter] as if knowing they had to remind us due to all the (over)complications).

TheNarrator
12-28-2009, 05:22 AM
watched this one just now, and i have to say...i love the twist. I knew something was up with the cell phone but now watching it again lets me see other hints just like how in Fight Club they throw hints to the end during the entire movie. Also, i was glad to finally see Michael return. He's not my favorite but if they announce him as part of the cast and his name is credited, really makes you think where he is. It'd be 6 episodes already. Sad to see he got so little screen time, and poor Walt. He's truely alone now isnt he? His mom and dad? Its sad. I love the twists, but the episode is just meh. Theres a lot of holes in season 4, but in the end, ill love it. Probably the weakest season(minues the start of season 3) haha

sdorian
01-10-2010, 12:19 AM
I could see Jack mentioning his dead father, it seemed like sarcasm ("If I'm drunker than he is"). But Sun is not only calling out Jin's name (which I could see), she tells the doctor to go get him. I guess she must be delirious from the pain...

hate Juliet in this episode too...it's Sun's decision.

Why would Ben sabotage the ship so it can't leave the island and go away? guess they know too much and have to die.

Yeah I'm more than a little confused about who knows what. The captain suggests Ben forged the crash (did they listen to the fake black box? and why's it on the freighter, not with Widmore), Miles and Daniel (I think) know it's fake, but Naomi presents it as real. Is it because Naomi, as more of a trained solider-type, is better at lying? Or maybe, as Frank suggests, no one actually sat around and chatted with each other (so they'd all know different things). But you'd think whether or not the crash is fake would come up in conversation.

Charlotte and Daniel neutralize the gas so Ben can't use it to kill them. But Keamy's second protocol is to kill everybody. So that doesn't make sense. And how would killing everybody accomplish the result of taking Ben. Did Widmore want Ben dead or alive, or just alive?

All we really know is that the freighter is from Charles Widmore. He's not communicating with Penny, but she knows about the island. The freighter doesn't come closer to shore, but Ben, through sabotage through Michael, doesn't want the freighter to leave either, apparently.

There's a time difference between the island and the freighter, but it's inconsistent, where the island is ahead of the freighter sometimes and behind sometimes (island receives the payload after, receives the doctor earlier, changes in minutes or hours or days). but no difference via phones.

George time travels too (were the other freighter crazies time traveling?). maybe George and Brendan (whoever he went out on the raft thing with) experienced radiation... Is there a reasoning behind who goes crazy and who doesn't? or why the Losties, for that matter, aren't nuts...or, well, nuts like the Freighter people?

When I first saw this, after Jin said he'd been married two months, I still thought it was a flashforward. I thought he'd kept working for Paik, him and Sun divorced, and he remarried. Now I know this episode sets up the flash-forward flash-back style that will come up later.

Wightpants
01-12-2010, 02:14 PM
There's a time difference between the island and the freighter, but it's inconsistent, where the island is ahead of the freighter sometimes and behind sometimes (island receives the payload after, receives the doctor earlier, changes in minutes or hours or days). but no difference via phones. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's nothing to say that time is moving differently on the freighter/island, just that travelling between the two causes people/objects to get a bit lost in time.



George time travels too (were the other freighter crazies time traveling?). maybe George and Brendan (whoever he went out on the raft thing with) experienced radiation... Is there a reasoning behind who goes crazy and who doesn't? or why the Losties, for that matter, aren't nuts...or, well, nuts like the Freighter people?Daniel gave Lapidus the bearing for getting to/from the island. The only person who has gone time-crazy whilst following this is Desmond. Possibly because he had been exposed to the electromagnetism from the hatch and was already a bit dislodged in time.


I share some of the frustrations about the inconsistencies mentioned earlier? Why did Michael warn Sayid and Desmond about the captain?I suppose the Captain did give false info about who faked the 815 wreckage, but yes, there's a lot of inconsistency in plot and character development at this stage.

Dr. Chameleon
01-12-2010, 07:47 PM
Charlotte and Daniel neutralize the gas so Ben can't use it to kill them. But Keamy's second protocol is to kill everybody. So that doesn't make sense. And how would killing everybody accomplish the result of taking Ben. Did Widmore want Ben dead or alive, or just alive?


I think they needed to neutralize the gas so that Keamy and his gang could come on to the island safely, and once they had Ben they could off everybody else. It seems like Widmore wanted Ben alive which doesn't entirely make sense to me, unless Ben has some knowledge that Widmore needs. I can see wanting everyone else dead since Widmore had already been exiled -- they might not be willing to let him come back. I guess it depends on the specific reason Widmore wants to go back to the island (is it just to survive?). Once again I'm curious about how much Widmore knows about the island, Jacob, MiB, etc. Would he think the gas could kill Jacob?

Bug-Eyed Enigma
09-12-2010, 11:20 PM
I think the ending of this episode was probably the most confusing moment in the history of the show for me.

I share some of the frustrations about the inconsistencies mentioned earlier? Why did Michael warn Sayid and Desmond about the captain? Why was he banging pipes together? Was this him messing up the engines? Why did Dr. Ray have a scar on his face that wasn't there in "The Constant"? Why was there blood on the wall in Sayid and Desmond's new room?

Weird stuff that we'll never get answers to. Oh well, this is my favorite Sun/Jin episode.

I assumed that it was just another suicide from a member of the freighter crew due to the 'cabin fever' ascribed by Gault, like when Regina jumps into the ocean wrapped in chains.

Hopelessly Lost
10-25-2010, 11:18 PM
I have to say the rewatch made me cry where I didn't when I first saw it. It was so sad to know that Jin will never meet Ji Yeon & that she will end up losing both of them. So tragic that the island brings their love back & a baby, but then ultimately kills them.

I think Charles didn't care about killing everyone on the island b/c he didn't want Ben's followers to give him trouble when he takes over. Also, he set up the fake plane crash so that he can kill the Losties on the island. Why deal w/the people who are there? Just kill them all & bring your own followers.

I also assumed the blood on the wall was freighters that went crazy & shot themselves.

I think it's sweet that Hurley came when Ji Yeon was born. Nobody else around Sun understood what she went thru & she really needed a friend.

ZeroPoint
01-14-2011, 04:47 PM
Bear with me as I have yet to watch season 5/6 for the first time. Before moving on, I decided to rewatch S1-4 in an attempt to better understand all of the little nuances of this show. I'm learning that there are a lot of them! Here are some of the things I didn't catch the first time I saw "Ji Yeon":

We see Sun putting items in her purse/bag and she turns the tv off. If you look carefully at the tv, you can just catch a glimpe of the same show starring Nikki that they used in the opening of the season 3 episode "Exposť".

Sun is putting on her lipstick when her complication begins and she goes to the hospital. Interesting that the end of this episode shows her doing the exact same thing after the baby is born (before heading to Jin's grave). Was this intended to imply that visiting Jin's grave was postponed all this time or were the producers being overly clever?

The Jin flashback/Sun flashforward confused me the first time but now that I've seen it twice, I realized what was happening. Very clever! The revelation was that I missed the "two months ago" marriage reference at the end of Jin's flashback. Here I had though that Jin somehow made it off the island and was leading a secret life apart from Sun so as to not blow the cover of the Oceanic 6, somewhat akin to Walt.

Related to the flashback/flashforward scene, I had thought that Jin had somehow died and I was wondering if it was something that occurred in the three years since the O6 were rescued. I now assume that his death had to be faked in order to keep their real story a secret.

I still found captain Gault's explaination of the wreckage of flight 815 confusing until reading this very thread. Both times I must have missed him stating that Ben staged the wreckage. It was subtle and I only heard him say that he was working for Charles Widmore followed by him asking what kind of resources it would take to stage such a cover-up. I guess a third viewing is not out of the question!

Some sublte observations that jumped out at me. Why did Hurley say "Gooood" is such a drawn out way when Sun said that no one else was coming. He almost seemed to revel in the fact that he had Sun all to himself. Also, why did Frank point out that Regina had her book upside down while she was guarding the room that Desmond & Sayid were being held in. Was is due to her becoming unglued before killing herself or ????

I am learning that a rewatch is definitely worth it not to mention a third viewing :)

Noman
01-14-2011, 08:32 PM
I like this episode a lot, but I feel like Jin's flashbacks are just in there to mislead the viewer, which I find a bit underhanded of the writers. There really is no thematic, story, or character development that occurs in his flashes, they're just to hide the ending.

Dr. Chameleon
01-14-2011, 08:35 PM
Some sublte observations that jumped out at me. Why did Hurley say "Gooood" is such a drawn out way when Sun said that no one else was coming. He almost seemed to revel in the fact that he had Sun all to himself. Also, why did Frank point out that Regina had her book upside down while she was guarding the room that Desmond & Sayid were being held in. Was is due to her becoming unglued before killing herself or ????


This must be before Hurley is institutionalized, and he's clearly upset by Jack's plan to lie about what happened. Later he'll have a huge relief when he spills the whole story to his mom in a brilliant summation of the plot.

And you're spot on about the Regina thing, that's all there was to it. I just saw this cast photo of her for the first time, nice: http://images.wikia.com/lostpedia/images/1/1e/079_b08.jpg :p