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tohdom
10-26-2009, 09:26 AM
Lost Rewatch Episode Discussion for "Meet Kevin Johnson"
(Oct 26 - Nov 1)

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Meet_Kevin_Johnson

Dr. Chameleon
10-28-2009, 10:50 PM
So Miles knows that they're supposed to get Ben and kill everyone else. Who else knows? Frank, Dan, Charlotte? Naomi was an awfully good actor when she was hanging out with all these people who were about to die...

It seems wrong that Karl doesn't know about the temple, though I'm not surprised when Ben says that it's "not for" the 815 survivors.

This might be reaching too much, but is it really "the island" that won't let Michael be killed, or are there island powers that Ben can tap into to make things happen, regardless of Jacob?

Tom says "some of us" can travel on and off the island. This apparently takes place between his time at the Hydra and the Barracks. Who else can travel, and who decides?

Miles apparently has some psychic powers in addition to his ghost-whispering. We see it here with Michael and again with Charlotte at the end of the season.

Isn't it strange that Frank was investigating his dead pilot friend (Seth Norris), yet he never asks the survivors about him once?

I expected the freighter folk to have a little bit of onminous creepiness about them, like the Others used to, but Keamy & co. shooting stuff seem more like hillbillies than a geniune threat.

Ben lies about his willingness to kill innocent people (see: his attempt to set off the Tempest gas, letting Alex die, letting Keamy die so the boat blew up, etc.). Speaking of which, did he know that Danielle and Karl would die when he sent them off to the temple? And why would he let Danielle go to the temple if he wouldn't let Sawyer, Hurley, et. al. go?

I'm also wondering if Libby & whispers are "real" or just a product of Michael's guilt.

imbeanie
10-29-2009, 04:23 PM
A quick one, until I catch up my rewatch: I wondered about Lapidus, too, and the "why" of his interest in Norris, beyond mere guilt that it was supposed to be himself. Lapidus' coming to the island may have been some sort of course correction, and of course, he is considered a "candidate" by Ilana and Bram. I think there's more to his story, for sure. (Or it could be as simple as: he did ask the survivors about Norris, but we as an audience were just not privy to those moments.)

Dr. Chameleon
10-29-2009, 06:29 PM
A quick one, until I catch up my rewatch: I wondered about Lapidus, too, and the "why" of his interest in Norris, beyond mere guilt that it was supposed to be himself. Lapidus' coming to the island may have been some sort of course correction, and of course, he is considered a "candidate" by Ilana and Bram. I think there's more to his story, for sure. (Or it could be as simple as: he did ask the survivors about Norris, but we as an audience were just not privy to those moments.)

Sure, but it seems important to his character, so it seems odd they'd omit that.

Right, "candidate." Hmm. Wonder what that's all about. What makes Lapidus in particular a candidate? Oh, these mysteries...

tohdom
11-09-2009, 06:02 AM
it is a long shot, but maybe Tom Friendly switched the Michael's gun to the broken one while they fought? Possible, but improbable.

Dr. Chameleon
11-10-2009, 12:57 AM
it is a long shot, but maybe Tom Friendly switched the Michael's gun to the broken one while they fought? Possible, but improbable.

Who knows? I just figure it's best not to take anything for granted on this show, although major S6 revelations notwithstanding, there's been a lot of stuff I've questioned that's never really come up again.

MM0602
11-15-2009, 04:26 AM
The Temple isn't for the 815 survivors, says Ben, but how come he doesn't object to Danielle going there? Is he just afraid she'll hit him over the head again? :p

It's so sad how Danielle dies. She seemed untouchable, I mean she survived on her own for 16 years! And in the end she went down so quickly and easily. Who buries her and Karl? I don't think the mercs would take the time to do that, unless Alex somehow talked them into doing it...?

I wonder how Walt's grandma reacted when other survivors of the plane crash showed up on the news?

Simon
11-15-2009, 05:14 AM
They would probably bury them to a) not leave tracks for others to follow or b) the whole "things don't stay buried on this island" secret.

I hate the way Danielle dies. Just makes her look a proper fool. :mad:

JulietDetonatesMyHeart
11-15-2009, 05:21 PM
I hate the way Danielle dies. Just makes her look a proper fool. :mad:

I know I hate it too. Such a badass character deserved to go down as a fighter.

I just rewatched this episode and even though I quite hated it when it came out (mostly because I abhor Michael), I actually liked it this time around.

MM0602
11-16-2009, 04:05 AM
It's true, her death did feel really lame the first time. I was sure she was going to come back until we saw her grave. It gets a bit less lame every time I rewatch though. Still feel she should have had a better death though.

Richard Was Here
12-01-2009, 03:49 AM
Well, I've not been a very big Michael fan since about the beginning of season 2 when he went all bonkers and barely did anything except scream "WAAALLLLTTTT!" (at least it seemed that way), and then followed 'annoying' up with 'homicidal'.

This, combined with the fact that I REALLY did not want to see Danielle die (I'm a big fan of Mira Furlan from her Babylon 5 days) makes this one of the few episodes of the show that I simply have to grind my way through.

The best part of this episode is Mr Friendly. His scenes are interesting. The rest of this episode I just have to sort of suffer through.

Jacob'sWiseOldMother
12-10-2009, 12:07 AM
I liked how they introduced Michael back into the story line. I thought it was well written and planned out in an interesting pattern. This is one of the ideas of the show in that the island decides your fate not free will. I just hope we find out why in season 6 at last!!!

Karl is much smarter than we realize. He told Alex, "What if your dad is playing us?" That is exactly what Ben did. He hated Karl and Danielle because they have become Alex's new family and he wants them gone in hopes that Alex will come back to him once again as her loving father. The only problem is, Ben misjudged Keamy badly and Keamy ended up killing Alex whether Charles told him to or not. Keamy doesn't seem like the type who cares about other people or rules.

I also hated how they killed off Danielle and thought she was the most unused "interesting" character on Lost. TPTB drag her through 4 seasons of on and off again appearances and then the actress finally says enough!!! and then they quickly kill her off. :(

I also want to have some sort of closure to Walt's story line. I know the actor grew up but TPTB have told us they expected to work around this, so I hope we get some answers to Walt being "special" in the end.

It was kind of neat that the writers followed up the reference to the file that Tom had. This goes back to the dead guy that Naomi brings Miles to see in the restaurant scene. I assume that Tom & company killed this guy to get the info to show to Michael. We also get another nod to Thailand with the graves as this is where Jack was at in his flashbacks.

Ben's con all along has been that Charles was going to kill all these people on the island but we still have no definite proof of this except Ben's word. I actually think that Charles just wanted to make sure these people didn't get off the island because of what Charles and Eloise know. Why kill John if later we see Charles trying to help John and the 05 get back? Makes no sense right now.

I also think that Naomi knew more than even the science team did. She just died before she got to help them out. When Frank doesn't want her to fly the second helicopter to the island, she tells him it's none of his business. Frank had very little info from Charles and I'm sure that Charles knew that Frank was "suppose" to be on the island as the pilot of 815 so he needed to "correct" that mistake by getting Frank onto the island at last. Charles simply lied to some of these people to get them to the island where they were suppose to be.

Ben was testing Michael with the fake bomb. What I guess we are lead to believe is that Ben needed info on who was on board the freighter so he could plan what would be his next move when they arrived. I don't think he really cared about those innocent people on board, as we saw in the finale, only that he got the information from his source on the freighter so he knew who he was dealing with. The only problem is, once Alex was killed, Ben fell apart. He hadn't planned on this happening. Ben still accomplished his goal though and the freighter still blew up. I think what Ben really wanted was to gas everyone once again and this would eliminate the problem of the losties, John and the freighter people being on the island.

Richard Was Here
12-10-2009, 02:13 AM
^ I agree about how they re-introduced Michael into the show. Although he's not my fave character, the way they brought him back was great, didn't feel forced at all, and gave the character a chance to be redeemed.

imbeanie
12-22-2009, 03:36 PM
I have to disagree about the "forced" part of bringing Michael back (and how sad that Michael is such a universally disliked character, myself included. The actor must be amazing to generate this much dislike, because I so enjoyed him in "Oz." But I digress....), mainly due to timeline issues, which perhaps someone can help out with. We crashes September 22, is on the island for about two months (mid/late November), returns home (How? Do we ever get that filled in? Not that it matters too much), melts down, goes into the hospital (presumably for a day at least), is recruited by Tom, and is back on the freighter offshore from the isalnd before Christmas? That seems like a lot to occur in a month or less. Or is this one of our first time shifts? Was the off-island Christmas (decorations at Grandma's, a tree in the hospital) a different Christmas--say, 2005-- than the island Christmas of 2004? But if so, wouldn't Michael notice? Ahh.... Season 4!

imbeanie
12-22-2009, 03:38 PM
One other quick thought.... why is it we never see Charlotte or Faraday on the freighter or at the dock? It seems like another example of hurried storytelling.

Dr. Chameleon
12-23-2009, 12:16 AM
One other quick thought.... why is it we never see Charlotte or Faraday on the freighter or at the dock? It seems like another example of hurried storytelling.

Yeah...that may be one reason why I hurried through season four so quickly on the rewatch. Although I do think it stands up a bit better once you've seen all of season five (and if you allow the production team a few excuses). The story gets so scattered in seasons 4 and 5 due to the multiple timelines and the on/off island stuff. I really hope they can keep things a little more focused and (dare I say it?) linear in the final season.

sdorian
01-10-2010, 02:18 AM
Ben could've been lying about that "kill everyone" bit, so they wouldn't hand him over. And Locke may want to keep Ben because he still thinks he can get secrets out of him - though he really should know better. Turn Ben Over! then maybe the freighterfolk will just go away...

Ben's map shows a Dharma logo for the Temple. This doesn't make sense to me. There are 6 Dharma videos, and 9 screens in the Pearl. Swan, Arrow, Pearl, Staff, Tempest, Flame, Hydra, Looking Glass, Orchid (9). Lamppost off-island (10). Well, ok, so the Pearl wouldn't have a TV on itself, and I guess not one for the Temple. So the Temple could be the 10th on-island Dharma station. But still, you'd think the Others would keep Dharma well away from the temple. It can't house both Other and Dharma, I would think.

Anybody know, just out of curiosity, what kind of car Michael's driving?

If Tom's to be believed, and it's not all coincidence/explainable, then the island has powers off island. Jacob?

Are there two Walt actors, since they switch between ages? or is it camera/computer magic?

Now Michael just has to trust Tom that the people on the freighter are heading to the island and are going to kill the Losties. But what grounds does he have for believing that? and, like with Libby and AnaLucia, it's a matter of ends justifying means. kill some people to save others. so Michael hasn't learned that it's bad to kill people...

oh..is there a second helicopter? one Naomi crashes?

Clearly (or not so clearly) there's a science team (arguably good guys) and a Keamy team (bad guys), who don't seem to have the same agenda or anything to do with each other.

Why would Ben and the island (in the form of ghost Libby) not want Michael to blow up the freighter mid-ocean, before reaching the island? The island probably wants the science team to be on the island. Ben ostensibly says it's to spare the lives of innocent people, but (he shot Charlotte) he doesn't seem too concerned with the lives of the science team. and, again, sparing innocent people? what about hanging Charlie (crazy Ethan without orders?) or Nathan (Goodwin's "bad" guy) or trying to kill Locke several times...or the guy who was brutally murdered according to Ethan's threat ...etc.

ben..telling Michael he's good, Locke he's special..what they need to hear

so Michael's bomb is totally fake? that sucks. What was Ben's plan to destroy the freighter?

I hate Rousseau's death. Not befitting a woman who survived 16 years alone.

Also, was the fake plane staged by Widmore? Widmore's people (the captain, Frank) say it wasn't him, maybe Ben. Ben's people (Ben, Tom) say it's Widmore. so it could be either...

sdorian
01-10-2010, 02:34 AM
Well, I've not been a very big Michael fan since about the beginning of season 2 when he went all bonkers and barely did anything except scream "WAAALLLLTTTT!" (at least it seemed that way), and then followed 'annoying' up with 'homicidal'.

This, combined with the fact that I REALLY did not want to see Danielle die (I'm a big fan of Mira Furlan from her Babylon 5 days) makes this one of the few episodes of the show that I simply have to grind my way through.

The best part of this episode is Mr Friendly. His scenes are interesting. The rest of this episode I just have to sort of suffer through.

I could not agree more. Michael was a traitor and I didn't have sympathy for him after he turned on the Losties. and I'd come to love Danielle as this totally bad ass survivor. I didn't want her to die and, if she did, she should've gone down fighting. plus, since she's been living alone on the island, you'd think she'd be in tune to the island, perhaps privy to its secrets...

Dr. Chameleon
01-12-2010, 08:03 PM
Ben's map shows a Dharma logo for the Temple. This doesn't make sense to me. There are 6 Dharma videos, and 9 screens in the Pearl. Swan, Arrow, Pearl, Staff, Tempest, Flame, Hydra, Looking Glass, Orchid (9). Lamppost off-island (10). Well, ok, so the Pearl wouldn't have a TV on itself, and I guess not one for the Temple. So the Temple could be the 10th on-island Dharma station. But still, you'd think the Others would keep Dharma well away from the temple. It can't house both Other and Dharma, I would think.

If Tom's to be believed, and it's not all coincidence/explainable, then the island has powers off island. Jacob?

Clearly (or not so clearly) there's a science team (arguably good guys) and a Keamy team (bad guys), who don't seem to have the same agenda or anything to do with each other.

Why would Ben and the island (in the form of ghost Libby) not want Michael to blow up the freighter mid-ocean, before reaching the island? The island probably wants the science team to be on the island.

Also, was the fake plane staged by Widmore? Widmore's people (the captain, Frank) say it wasn't him, maybe Ben. Ben's people (Ben, Tom) say it's Widmore. so it could be either...

The Dharma logo on the map for the temple is probably one of the biggest, stupidest gaffes they've made on the show.

The off island powers question could be related to Jacob, or it could be that "the island" does have an agenda of its own, but I wonder if it is more of an issue of course-correction/time-travel. Michael couldn't die because he had to be on the boat that would bring the mercenaries that would cause Ben to turn the wheel which led to the events that took the Losties back to 1977 which caused the incident. So most likely the timeline required that he not die, just as Jack was (less dramatically, perhaps) unable to kill himself.

My problem with the science team vs. Keamy team is that they were hired by the same man and they were all on the same boat so it just seems ridiculous that they wouldn't know anything about one another, but I guess that's the story I'm stuck with.

It does seem to not make much sense why Ben wouldn't have Michael blow the freighter, although I suppose you could look at it this way: if Michael blew up the freighter Widmore would just send a different boatload of guys with guns. This way Ben could control the situation as much as possible by using his inside man and manipulating what he could. Once he's off the island, Ben does what he can to weaken Widmore's organization (using Sayid as an assassin) until he returns to the island. So now my question is: why does Ben think he's safe from Widmore at this point? We're so focused on Locke, Jacob, etc. that Ben's actions (especially once he meekly accepts orders from his dead daughter) are somewhat inexplicable at this point. UNLESS Ben is playing some larger game, either with Jacob or MiB or something/someone else (even just himself) and we don't know what he's up to yet. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit but it seems likely.

Meanwhile if ghost Libby was related to the smoke monster/MiB it makes sense for Michael not to blow up the boat because of the aforementioned chain of events, in this case which will cause John to be killed and returned to the island.

Widmore admits to faking the plane crash eventually (when he visits Dan in "The Variable"), which puts that to rest.

Living_Locke
05-15-2010, 11:47 PM
Harold Perrineau was really good in this episode, probably the best I've seen him on Lost.

TNPLH
09-05-2010, 09:33 PM
I really liked this episode - thought it was a great "lead-in" to TSOTTC. I also thought the Michael flashbacks were really interesting.

ZeroPoint
01-17-2011, 06:05 PM
First time I have rewatched this episode and a few things stand out:

This is one of my favorite Michael episodes. He finally has a solid purpose and not only that, he's on the road to redemption. The other portion of this episode that really makes it stand out is, unfortunately one of my least favorite scenes of the entire series.

The first time I saw this epsiode, I thought we would see Danielle come back from her wounds somehow. I was sure that we would see her save the day by taking out Keamy or Omar in the final battle scene, one hand on her chest clinging feebly to life! Consider all of the times we saw this happen to other characters (Sawyer's infection from the gunshot, Charlie's hanging, John's shot to the abdomen, etc). Heck, even Boone & Libby managed to hang on for some time after being fatally wounded. Not for Danielle though. "I want you to hold my hand and on the count of three, we are going to run! Ready, on-...." *BLAM!* Poor Danielle doesn't even get a chance to finish her sentence. Can you say head-shot???

In hopes of finding some crumb of redemption in this scene I replayed it in slow motion several times hoping for a glimmer of something like signs of a minor flesh wound or a revealing grin of some sort a-la Ben, etc. Nope, Danielle just goes down like a sack of potatoes :-( Now that I think of it, Nikki's character on "Exposť" died in a similar fashion. In that epsiode, she mentions off camera that her involvment in the show is done so they kill her character off in a way that it cannot be mistaken (abdomen shot while in a bikini). In a similar way, Danielle's death is unmistakable, I guess the island didn't need her anymore :(

Slo-mo did reveal several goofs like the shot to Danielle chest going off early and Karl's ear plugs being visible not to mention something hanging from Alex's ear (not an earring). Small consolation though.

Dr. Chameleon
01-18-2011, 09:41 PM
This is one of my favorite Michael episodes. He finally has a solid purpose and not only that, he's on the road to redemption. .

I think it's kinda ruined by him turning up as a lost soul on the island afterward, though. Apparently he wasn't redeemed by sacrificing his life. I guess the island demanded some closure with Walt, though, and that's why he remained, but then I don't understand why (post-"moving on"?) Christian told him he could go.

john lock was here
02-03-2011, 03:29 PM
What ever happend to Tom friendly ?

Dr. Chameleon
02-03-2011, 04:39 PM
What ever happend to Tom friendly ?

Sawyer shot him dead at the end of season three ("Through the Looking Glass, Part 1"). His appearance here happened before that, chronologically.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Friendly

Fish1941
02-03-2011, 11:25 PM
I think it's kinda ruined by him turning up as a lost soul on the island afterward, though. Apparently he wasn't redeemed by sacrificing his life. I guess the island demanded some closure with Walt, though, and that's why he remained, but then I don't understand why (post-"moving on"?) Christian told him he could go.


Who knows? Bad writing? I've never understood that, either.




Well, I've not been a very big Michael fan since about the beginning of season 2 when he went all bonkers and barely did anything except scream "WAAALLLLTTTT!" (at least it seemed that way), and then followed 'annoying' up with 'homicidal'.


Michael had just lost his son in a very violent manner - kidnapped by the Others. What did you expect him to do? Act like Mr. Spock? Mind you, killing Ana-Lucia in order to free Ben was the wrong way to get Walt back. Then again, I was annoyed by the Losties' inertia when it came to finding Walt.




I have to disagree about the "forced" part of bringing Michael back (and how sad that Michael is such a universally disliked character, myself included. The actor must be amazing to generate this much dislike, because I so enjoyed him in "Oz." But I digress....), mainly due to timeline issues, which perhaps someone can help out with.

Well, Michael was not part of the "Golden Circle" - aka Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and Locke. He was a parent of a ten-year boy. He was an imperfect and inexperienced parent. No one wanted to see a fictional character crying out desperately the name of his/her kidnapped child, because it didn't look "cool". And he killed two of the Losties in order to get his son back. If Michael had committed a cold-blooded crime against a guest character or a character deemed a "villain" or "bad guy" by the fans, his actions would have been forgiven, forgotten or dismissed. Or in the case of Kate's kidnapping of Aaron, dismissed on the grounds that she had done nothing wrong, due to her "girl next door" looks.

Van Hohenheim
06-03-2012, 12:24 AM
In retrospective, this is one of my favourite episodes. It's surprisingly mythological, and shows us how one of Survivors becomes an "Other" without him or the audience really realizing it.

Before we understood what we know now about Jacob, Ben and Tom's decision to go to such great lengths to put Michael on the Freighter seemed very contrived, convoluted, and unnecessary to me.

Now, it's very clear that Ben and Tom are acting under the orders of Jacob- to put Michael on the Freighter, have him gather the list of peoples' names (though not actually kill them), and then disable their radio equipment. Jacob, via Richard, via Ben, must have explained to Tom to that Michael was unable to die until he finished his mission. Notice the genuine eagerness Tom has to find out through which method Jacob subverted Michael's suicide attempts ("Did the bullet bounce off your skull? Or did the gun just jam on ya?"). A neat example of an Other's interest in validating their faith. At the end of the episode, where Michael fully commits to their cause by setting of the "bomb", Ben gives him his real mission and congratulates him on becoming "one of the Good Guys"- ie an Other. A member of Jacob's selected tribe.

What Michael experienced in this episode is very much in line with Jacob modus operandi when it comes to the Others. In order to find redemption -or in his case specifically, to save his friends- Michael had to sacrifice his life and his chance to see his son again. Like Sayid observed of Dogen's circumstance, Jacob drives a hard bargain.

Truly one of LOST's most underrated and clever episodes.

Dr. Chameleon
06-12-2012, 09:40 PM
Nice reading of this episode in context of the finished series, Van Hohenheim. I'm itchin' to rewatch myself, but first I have to finish season four of Breaking Bad. (I'm trying to watch Star Trek: Voyager, too, but it's not doing much for me).

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09-17-2012, 12:12 PM
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Fish1941
10-14-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm trying to watch Star Trek: Voyager, too, but it's not doing much for me.


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Why did Michael tell Walt that he killed Ana-Lucia and Libby? The series never explained why he did this. Instead, they informed the audience of Michael's confession, but never explained what led to it. Sloppy writing.