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Jabberwock
02-02-2010, 03:18 PM
This thread is for discussion of the February 2nd episode: "LA X, Parts 1 & 2" The Season 6 Premiere.

Please see the 6x01 In-show Analysis & Chat thread for general "excitement" comments made during the airing.

For more information on this episode, please visit the Lostpedia Wiki page dedicated to this episode.

Please do not post ANY spoilers in this thread without marking them with the spoiler tags.
This includes any information from Promos - Ads - Trailers that are shown after the episode or at any other time.

For more information on what we consider a spoiler here, please see Lostpedia Forum Spoiler Policy. (http://forum.lostpedia.com/showthread.php?t=41229)

Thanks and enjoy!

Manipulation
02-03-2010, 04:01 AM
Woah!!

Ok; so i'm assuming the people at the temple were people who Jacob brought to the island. Right?
And now they are screwed because flocke never wanted them there in the first place.

I also loved the scene with jack/locke at the airport!

alleykat8488
02-03-2010, 04:02 AM
ok! I don't even know where to begin with my questions!!!!

When did smokey first come to the island?

is jacob now sayid? or is Sayid alive?

deathwish
02-03-2010, 04:04 AM
"NICE TO SEE YOU OUT OF THOSE CHAINS" is line of the year.

CTS
02-03-2010, 04:04 AM
Chains?!! What does that mean?? Black Rock or just metaphorical?

MinionOfEckerd
02-03-2010, 04:05 AM
Sayid is now the leader of the Others. <3

gilbo125
02-03-2010, 04:06 AM
Chains?!! What does that mean?? Black Rock or just metaphorical?

I'd say black rock. Wasn't the black rock a slave ship?

Flyin' High
02-03-2010, 04:06 AM
Okay, I have about a million thoughts that I have to get in order.

First, Man is Black IS the Smoke Monster! Wow, I know the clues were there but it still came as a shock seeing it for real.

Richard! What is he going to do to Richard? And Richard was in chains? Was he one of the slaves on the Black Rock? A prisoner of the Man in Black?

The Temple! Incredible! More than I could ever have imagined.

And the events on the plane and at the airport! Alternate reality?

And Jacob's list (I assume all of their names were on the piece of paper)! I never took the mention of lists seriously--that honestly blew my mind.

And what about that shot of the island being under the ocean--crazy!

Okay, that's all I can process at the moment. :eek:

zrocker714
02-03-2010, 04:07 AM
I think it safe to Assume that Richard was a slave
on the black rock.

MinionOfEckerd
02-03-2010, 04:08 AM
How does MiB/Smokey get underneath the Temple if the Others were in control of it at the time? The Judgment of Ben scene happens while the Others are inside the Temple.

(Unless the outer rim of the Temple is open to Smokey)

Desmonds mutual friend
02-03-2010, 04:10 AM
How does MiB/Smokey get underneath the Temple if the Others were in control of it at the time? The Judgment of Ben scene happens while the Others are inside the Temple.

(Unless the outer rim of the Temple is open to Smokey)

I think that's just it. He can't get past the ash, and we can see that the Others have only sprinkled it on the inside of the wall...

Hugo Rocks
02-03-2010, 04:12 AM
Woah!!

Ok; so i'm assuming the people at the temple were people who Jacob brought to the island. Right?
And now they are screwed because flocke never wanted them there in the first place.

I also loved the scene with jack/locke at the airport!

And did Jacob bring Flocke to the island? Where is home for him? Or is it a fallen angel thing?

Also did Sandy say "They were with me when the plane crashed the first time?" Does that imply Temple others are aware of multiple time lines?

deathwish
02-03-2010, 04:12 AM
I'd say black rock. Wasn't the black rock a slave ship?

Yeah, and people had guessed that Richard came on the Black Rock as a slave.

Lost Badger
02-03-2010, 04:12 AM
I want to know where "home" is for Locke. I really hope it's on this planet.

And boooooo MIB for doing that to Richard!

Also, how long were Ben and MIB in the foot after the smokey attack? It went from night to day.

MinionOfEckerd
02-03-2010, 04:13 AM
And did Jacob bring Flocke to the island? Where is home for him? Or is it a fallen angel thing?

Also did Sandy say "They were with me when the plane crashed the first time?" Does that imply Temple others are aware of multiple time lines?

Possibly, or:

First time: Flight 815
Second time: Flight 316

Might be what she was referring to when she said that.

Hugo Rocks
02-03-2010, 04:14 AM
I want to know where "home" is for Locke. I really hope it's on this planet.

And boooooo MIB for doing that to Richard!

Also, how long were Ben and MIB in the foot after the smokey attack? It went from night to day.

Yes, I thought that too. Same for Sawyer w/Juliet's body. She died - night. Then day suddenly & they're burying the body.

If "home" is extraterrestial I am not going to be pleased.

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 04:15 AM
Thoughts:

Is AR Jack going to fix AR Locke?

Will Richard age now?

Why did it take Sayid so long to come back to life? Has Jacob reincarnated inside Sayid's body?

How did Juliet know that the AR happened? And why didn't anyone else?

In the AR, where's walt, michael, libby, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia? Are we going to see Island people (Ben, Richard, Widmore, etc) in the AR?

I guess in the AR, that the hydrogen bomb sunk the island.

The leader at the temple, was he speaking chinese or japanese?

I'm guessing that "home" for the MiB is either Egypt or Israel.

Are Jacob and/or MiB aware of the AR?

scott_burke
02-03-2010, 04:15 AM
Was Richard an Egyptian slave?! WOAH, why didn't I think of that?!

(hello, they're African...)

Hugo Rocks
02-03-2010, 04:15 AM
Possibly, or:

First time: Flight 815
Second time: Flight 316

Might be what she was referring to when she said that.

Yes. You got it.

Desmonds mutual friend
02-03-2010, 04:17 AM
Yes, I thought that too. Same for Sawyer w/Juliet's body. She died - night. Then day suddenly & they're burying the body.

If "home" is extraterrestial I am not going to be pleased.

Maybe it just means home like 1) the temple or 2) the place that everyone else wanted to get back to except Locke( ie the real world).

Kinda like Ben kept everyone on the island and didnt let anyone go home ( i e think of Juliet saying I want to go home)

Maybe its something similar to that...

PreviouslyOnLost
02-03-2010, 04:21 AM
most of my questions have been asked by other people already. but i'm also wondering why shannon wasn't on the alternate reality plane and why john locke claimed he went on the walkabout. also, why was desmond on the plane and why did he seem to vanish?

badass episode though.

DriveShaftGroupie
02-03-2010, 04:21 AM
Was Richard an Egyptian slave?! WOAH, why didn't I think of that?!

(hello, they're African...)

This. I -really- don't see how Richard could have been a slave on the Black Rock. For one, I *really* get the feeling he's been around for longer than 150 years. For two? Richard is not African!

BFG
02-03-2010, 04:22 AM
Okay my thoughts.

Juliet saying it's important that it worked meant

that the plane landing isn't alternate reality at all, it really did happen but somehow they are still gonna end up on the island? (yeah i know that's weird seeing as it was underwater, but who knows) also the chick did say i was on the plane with them the first time

and the man in black saying he wants to go home probably means the temple, he was outcast and now wants to be back in charge, that's why he said he was very dissapointed with his people

sayid is probably someone else too, maybe jacob.

Hugo Rocks
02-03-2010, 04:22 AM
Thoughts:

Is AR Jack going to fix AR Locke?

Will Richard age now?

Why did it take Sayid so long to come back to life? Has Jacob reincarnated inside Sayid's body?

How did Juliet know that the AR happened? And why didn't anyone else?

In the AR, where's walt, michael, libby, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia? Are we going to see Island people (Ben, Richard, Widmore, etc) in the AR?

I guess in the AR, that the hydrogen bomb sunk the island.

The leader at the temple, was he speaking chinese or japanese?

I'm guessing that "home" for the MiB is either Egypt or Israel.

Are Jacob and/or MiB aware of the AR?

Would love if AR Jack fixes AR Locke. I think his "Nothing is irreversible" line, which was in the contest winner's package is obviously meaningful and will have broader implications.



Re: Sayid/Jacob - I don't think it will be Jacob or MIB. BC when MIB assumes another's form it is their form but not the actual body (hence Locke's body next to MIB version of Flocke). I think it will be Sayid. But an Otherized version of Sayid with some memory loss a la young Ben.

That is all I have for now. Good points though.

Lost Badger
02-03-2010, 04:24 AM
Maybe it just means home like 1) the temple or 2) the place that everyone else wanted to get back to except Locke( ie the real world).

Kinda like Ben kept everyone on the island and didnt let anyone go home ( i e think of Juliet saying I want to go home)

Maybe its something similar to that...

I really hope so. My first thought was "please, no aliens." The second was "maybe he wants to wreak havoc on the outside world. That would make the Others very important, assuming their goal is to stop MIB, which I think is pretty clear. I still believe the Temple has some sort of transportation device or something. There's definitely much more to that place than what we've seen, which is a garden and a spring.

scott_burke
02-03-2010, 04:24 AM
This. I -really- don't see how Richard could have been a slave on the Black Rock. For one, I *really* get the feeling he's been around for longer than 150 years. For two? Richard is not African!

Egyptians are Africans ;)

And did Miles say that Juliet wanted to tell Sawyer "The word?"

Did I understand that right?

minimicrocosm
02-03-2010, 04:25 AM
I took juliet's "it worked" line as something else.

at first she was saying she hit the bomb and it didn't work. but as she was dying she realized it did work. Maybe death brought her a view into the alternate reality...reality X. Sayid also woke up after the spring rebirth thing and was confused and said "what happened?" maybe as he was dead he saw the alternate reality as well.

Ever Adrift
02-03-2010, 04:26 AM
most of my questions have been asked by other people already. but i'm also wondering why shannon wasn't on the alternate reality plane and why john locke claimed he went on the walkabout. also, why was desmond on the plane and why did he seem to vanish?

badass episode though.

I don't think this counts as a spoiler so I'm gonna post it but if there's an objection, I can delete it...




I'm pretty sure the actress who played Shannon was either unable or unwilling to return to film so that's why she wasn't on the plane...

DriveShaftGroupie
02-03-2010, 04:26 AM
Egyptians are Africans ;)

Have you ever told an Egyptian that? ;) Still. I don't think he was on the Black Rock. At all.

miratime
02-03-2010, 04:26 AM
Thoughts:
The leader at the temple, was he speaking chinese or japanese?

It was Japanese.

PreviouslyOnLost
02-03-2010, 04:26 AM
And did Miles say that Juliet wanted to tell Sawyer "The word?"



No she wanted to say "it worked," presumably the bomb resetting everything worked.

Hugo Rocks
02-03-2010, 04:27 AM
most of my questions have been asked by other people already. but i'm also wondering why shannon wasn't on the alternate reality plane and why john locke claimed he went on the walkabout. also, why was desmond on the plane and why did he seem to vanish?

badass episode though.

In the In Episode thread someone explained that Shannon & misc others may not be on the plane because it is an alternate reality. Not the same reality as before. Thus, some things are different than the first time.

Locke, I think, claimed he did do the walkabout bc they wanted to show his loneliness/frustration/refusal to accept what he can't do, even if only in his head.

Des, I'm still working out. Could be he just moved seats and did not actually vanish. Or could be something else. Stay tuned...;)

DeBarlo
02-03-2010, 04:27 AM
and the man in black saying he wants to go home probably means the temple, he was outcast and now wants to be back in charge, that's why he said he was very dissapointed with his people


If he is smokey then we saw him at them temple complex in Season 5. He took Ben there and then came out of the vent.

alleykat8488
02-03-2010, 04:27 AM
Juliet says maybe we can get some coffee before she dies...maybe sawyer and her will meet in the alternate reality.

Lost Badger
02-03-2010, 04:28 AM
most of my questions have been asked by other people already. but i'm also wondering why shannon wasn't on the alternate reality plane and why john locke claimed he went on the walkabout. also, why was desmond on the plane and why did he seem to vanish?

badass episode though.

I think it clearly indicates that the alternate reality isn't just different in terms of what happened after the turbulence. The characters lives were also different before the flight. We also didn't see Michael and Walt, but that's probably because the actor who plays Walt is much older now.

DriveShaftGroupie
02-03-2010, 04:30 AM
I was also thinking (as an explanation) that maybe we didn't see Michael and Walt on the plane because, in this AR, Susan didn't die? That would be nice, at least.

Ever Adrift
02-03-2010, 04:30 AM
Have you ever told an Egyptian that? ;) Still. I don't think he was on the Black Rock. At all.

Not to split hairs but Egyptians are African's in the geographic sense, Arabic in the ethnic sense. We in the US tend to associate 'African' with black people, but all 'African' really means is that a person is from the continent of Africa; African is not an ethnicity and doesn't technically imply a specific skin color.

scott_burke
02-03-2010, 04:31 AM
Have you ever told an Egyptian that? ;) Still. I don't think he was on the Black Rock. At all.



Yes. :p

One of my best friends is Egyptian and we joke about it all the time.

LostSpud
02-03-2010, 04:36 AM
I think Flocke took Richard as a bargaining chip to get into the temple.

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 04:36 AM
most of my questions have been asked by other people already. but i'm also wondering why shannon wasn't on the alternate reality plane and why john locke claimed he went on the walkabout. also, why was desmond on the plane and why did he seem to vanish?

badass episode though.

Locke was lying, because he was ashamed of not being able to go on the walkabout.

Shannon was not on the plane because in this AR, Boone doesn't have a hang-up over Shannon, so he didn't feel compelled to save her.

Desmond either just spent the last few minutes of the flight in the bathroom, or he's doing some weird time/space/reality traveling.

DriveShaftGroupie
02-03-2010, 04:37 AM
Not to split hairs but Egyptians are African's in the geographic sense, Arabic in the ethnic sense. We in the US tend to associate 'African' with black people, but all 'African' really means is that a person is from the continent of Africa; African is not an ethnicity and doesn't technically imply a specific skin color.

Right. I apologize for my poor use of the terminology!

sealine
02-03-2010, 04:38 AM
On the plane, Hurley said he was the luckiest guy alive (and seemed to mean it wholeheartedly). I have a feeling that something weird is up with that. He sure didn't feel that way the first time around when he went to Australia / was on his way home. Not only is the flight's outcome different, the circumstances leading up to it seem to be different ... unless I'm missing something! Which is entirely possible with Lost.

tabula rasa
02-03-2010, 04:38 AM
Have you ever told an Egyptian that? ;) Still. I don't think he was on the Black Rock. At all.

well Africa is a continent not a country. it's like calling someone who lives in france a european. they are european, but they are specifically french.

Hammurabi
02-03-2010, 04:40 AM
- The fact that Jack saved Charlie in AR is going to affect the island reality? When I noticed that Charlie was dying, immediately I assumed "oh! why will die of overdose so in both realities he actually dies!" but then Jack apparently screw it up (according to Charlie words)?
- Is the island reality three years forward than the AR? Can both realities interconnect when times passes?
- Is this temple on an alternate reality too? Why nobody visualize it from the mountain top?
- Did Richard knew about the temple?
- Why the Frenches were "infected" after entering the temple? Did they met these people? Why they went back outside?

lostaddict12
02-03-2010, 04:40 AM
I got all excited about Juliet being alive, then she just had to die :(:mad::(

Sayid... now that's pretty crazy.


Two great lines:
- when Flocke says that Locke was the only survivor to realize how crappy his previous life was
- in the airport Jack said to Locke "Nothing is irreversible." That was cool.

MagicBox
02-03-2010, 04:41 AM
My signature picture is now....Confirmed. BWAHAHAHAHA!

DriveShaftSucks
02-03-2010, 04:41 AM
Desmond disappeared right after Charlie was saved by Jack. That can't be a coincidence
The hatch remains looked different then it did when we first saw it.

sgio322
02-03-2010, 04:43 AM
do you think it would have made a difference if they brought juliet to the temple too?

bj2745
02-03-2010, 04:44 AM
I want to know where "home" is for Locke. I really hope it's on this planet.

And boooooo MIB for doing that to Richard!

Also, how long were Ben and MIB in the foot after the smokey attack? It went from night to day.

Flocke=Lucifer

PreviouslyOnLost
02-03-2010, 04:45 AM
i just posted this question in the in-show discussion (sorry mods, didn't mean to double post this)...

what are the chances that MIB took Jacob's body after he was killed to tell Hurley to bring Sayid's body to the temple?

sluhser589
02-03-2010, 04:45 AM
So I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Desmond knew what was up.

DriveShaftSucks
02-03-2010, 04:46 AM
- Is this temple on an alternate reality too? Why nobody visualize it from the mountain top?
- Did Richard knew about the temple?


-I think Flocke and the others seeing the firework means the temple is in the same reality
-Yes, he took Ben there.

Dharma Ranch Dressing
02-03-2010, 04:47 AM
Juliet says maybe we can get some coffee before she dies...maybe sawyer and her will meet in the alternate reality.

Good catch!!! I like this very much.

SOmething else that just struck me, Libby and Desmond met in a coffee shop also. Nothing important about that, other than 2 other Losties met off island in a similar setting that Juliet described.

estaman
02-03-2010, 04:49 AM
"NICE TO SEE YOU OUT OF THOSE CHAINS" is line of the year.

I read all of the comments about Richard being a slave on the Black Rock. Well, there are other interpretations of the line, as in it's the MIB that is now out of his chains/free to wreak havoc on the Island since Jacob is 'dead'.

yunjinkim
02-03-2010, 04:49 AM
do you think it would have made a difference if they brought juliet to the temple too?

I said the exact same thing!

DriveShaftSucks
02-03-2010, 04:49 AM
i just posted this question in the in-show discussion (sorry mods, didn't mean to double post this)...

what are the chances that MIB took Jacob's body after he was killed to tell Hurley to bring Sayid's body to the temple?

Oh crap. :eek:

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 04:50 AM
Question: when the Ajira people enter the foot, shoot at Flocke, Flocke goes around the pillar and disappears. They picked up a little object on the floor. What was it?

bj2745
02-03-2010, 04:51 AM
i just posted this question in the in-show discussion (sorry mods, didn't mean to double post this)...

what are the chances that MIB took Jacob's body after he was killed to tell Hurley to bring Sayid's body to the temple?

I don't think so. MIB is in Flocke form on the beach when the flare from the temple goes up, approximately the same time Sayid is being ressurected.

bj2745
02-03-2010, 04:51 AM
Question: when the Ajira people enter the foot, shoot at Flocke, Flocke goes around the pillar and disappears. They picked up a little object on the floor. What was it?

A bullet. It was damaged like it had hit the wall, i.e. it went right through Flocke.

estaman
02-03-2010, 04:52 AM
Question: when the Ajira people enter the foot, shoot at Flocke, Flocke goes around the pillar and disappears. They picked up a little object on the floor. What was it?

I think that it was a deformed bullet that they had fired at Flocke which either bounced off of him or went right through him and hit the stone pillars/wall.

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 04:52 AM
i just posted this question in the in-show discussion (sorry mods, didn't mean to double post this)...

what are the chances that MIB took Jacob's body after he was killed to tell Hurley to bring Sayid's body to the temple?

Doesn't seem likely. The contents of the guitar case, specifically the instructions, suggest that Jacob knew this was coming for quite some time. He'd die, tell Hurley to take the case to the temple, so the priest there would know what to do.

DriveShaftSucks
02-03-2010, 04:54 AM
I don't know about you guys but I am so glad Bram is dead. That dude just got on my nerves.

PreviouslyOnLost
02-03-2010, 04:54 AM
I don't think so. MIB is in Flocke form on the beach when the flare from the temple goes up, approximately the same time Sayid is being ressurected.

i don't really remember, but are you sure this couldn't have happened when they left Flocke alone in the foot when Ben went to get Richard?

estaman
02-03-2010, 04:55 AM
First, Man is Black IS the Smoke Monster! Wow, I know the clues were there but it still came as a shock seeing it for real.


I am more thinking that the MIB is one of the smoke monsters/MIB can turn into the smoke monster.

Jacob may have been able to turn into a smoke monster as well which might explain some of its less violent appearances.

deathwish
02-03-2010, 04:56 AM
I don't know about you guys but I am so glad Bram is dead. That dude just got on my nerves.

I'm glad he's dead just because of how awesomely he died.

PreviouslyOnLost
02-03-2010, 04:57 AM
Doesn't seem likely. The contents of the guitar case, specifically the instructions, suggest that Jacob knew this was coming for quite some time. He'd die, tell Hurley to take the case to the temple, so the priest there would know what to do.

ah, good call. the whole guitar case thing kind of discredits what i brought up

Manipulation
02-03-2010, 04:58 AM
Juliet says maybe we can get some coffee before she dies...maybe sawyer and her will meet in the alternate reality.

I think you're onto something.

locke-n-load
02-03-2010, 04:59 AM
i don't really remember, but are you sure this couldn't have happened when they left Flocke alone in the foot when Ben went to get Richard?

I answered it in the other forum disc. satisfactorily imo

minimicrocosm
02-03-2010, 05:00 AM
Thoughts:

In the AR, where's walt, michael, ...

I don't know about Michael, but Walt was too busy doing Anytizer commercials

Hart
02-03-2010, 05:02 AM
I am more thinking that the MIB is one of the smoke monsters/MIB can turn into the smoke monster.

Jacob may have been able to turn into a smoke monster as well which might explain some of its less violent appearances.

I was wondering this, too. Anything could be the case, but the smoke monster definitely wasn't always "bad." On the other hand, if Ben decides "eff it," I'm siding with the devil now ... or he's so mad at MiB, he decides to power struggle with him ... perhaps the times when the smoke monster didn't appear to necessarily be doing bad was because he was manipulating things to his own end.

jtavano
02-03-2010, 05:03 AM
So much to say...so much to consider...

ok, for starters, I first thought that Sayid might now be Jacob but I'm now leaning more towards Sayid being the new Leader of the others.

Sucks that Juliet died. I'm not convinced about her coffee line referring to the AR. Furthermore...

I'm totally flabbergasted by the whole AR scenario altogether. I held out since last may that it wouldn't happen, so I got nothing. Well, that's not true...I have ideas...The AR is sort of reminding me of the Langoliers...I think it will implode on its own weight on some way...also its bringing in some interesting notions of Feynman's QED theories about time and causality.

so much...ok...Richard...there have been theories for years that he was on the black rock...that he is the progenitor of the entire Hanso line and thus their link to clandestine worldwide power...but then again the chains line could have just been metaphorical.

Desmond...no clue...

The temple pool...not clear...what does it mean? Did the Japanese guy's hand actually heal when dipped in?

Hart
02-03-2010, 05:05 AM
The temple pool...not clear...what does it mean? Did the Japanese guy's hand actually heal when dipped in?

Could be wrong, but I thought the point was that his hand didn't heal.

jtavano
02-03-2010, 05:06 AM
Could be wrong, but I thought the point was that his hand didn't heal.
exactly!! so, why is sayid alive again? the pool didn't do it then, right?

DriveShaftSucks
02-03-2010, 05:11 AM
exactly!! so, why is sayid alive again? the pool didn't do it then, right?

Well his wounds seemed to be gone.

estaman
02-03-2010, 05:15 AM
I was wondering this, too. Anything could be the case, but the smoke monster definitely wasn't always "bad." On the other hand, if Ben decides "eff it," I'm siding with the devil now ... or he's so mad at MiB, he decides to power struggle with him ... perhaps the times when the smoke monster didn't appear to necessarily be doing bad was because he was manipulating things to his own end.

I think that Ben's basically in shock at this point. He, the master manipulator, has been the most manipulated for the longest time.

I have several ideas about the path he will choose when he recovers from the shock. He may follow MiB as he considers himself forever 'lost'/beyond hope at this point. Or he may be key to some kind of final resurrection and redemption. I'm thinking Anakin Skywalker -> Darth Vader redemption here.

MM0602
02-03-2010, 05:16 AM
Okay. That opening was INCREDIBLE. Wtf. The island underwater!? People are saying the bomb sunk it, is that true? The statue was still just the foot, right? But how does it make sense that the bomb sunk it, if in this timeline they never go to the island, therefore never time travel to 77, never set off the bomb in the first place? Soooo confused!

It was nice to see Charlie and Boone, even though they just got one or two scenes. Actually it was nice to see everyone looking like they did in the Pilot. Very interesting to see what could have happened had they not crashed. But why is Sawyer so chilled out? And Hurley is lucky now? So some things have changed. Kate's story was fun to watch. And Claire in the taxi was totally a surprise! Nice to see her again too, I wonder if she's still pregnant? Jack and Locke scene was quite nice. I wonder if Locke will contact Jack later on. I like how even though they didn't crash, they're still all connected with each other.

The first scene with Kate was really good too. I thought they had all been teleported to different places at first. And when I heard Juliet at the bottom of the Swan I actually bolted up in my seat. Damn tricky writers, I totally thought she was going to make it. I feel a bit better about her death now that she got to be with Sawyer at the end. Judging by what Miles heard her say, I think we'll see her in the alternate timeline soon... I hope there's a way for her and Sawyer to reunite.

The Temple was awesome. I totally called it being a pyramid but it was still so cool to see. Japanese guy is pretty cool. And finally, Cindy and the kids have become full-out Others. The kids didn't seem that much different than the last time we saw them, and that was in season 3... weird. Now, wtf is up with Sayid!?

And I guess all the people that thought smokey was the MIB were right! I don't know how I feel about that to be honest. I liked the idea of smokey being its own thing, not really good and not really evil. Now it seems like it's pretty much just evil. So now we know what the ash is for. Nice try Bram. I took "home" as the Temple for smokey. We saw that's where he lived when Jin went with Danielle, so I guess the Others somehow took it from him and figured out how to keep him out with the ash. I agree with whoever said that if his home is another planet I will not be happy.

I'm really interested in how they're going to deal with the alternate timeline. I'm guessing that they're either going to somehow merge the two together or eliminate one at some point somehow, but how the heck are they going to do that?

NEXT EPISODE NOW PLEASE

charlajw
02-03-2010, 05:18 AM
I was struck when AR Locke mentioned the "soul" of Christian Shepard. I believe that the main theme going on is good vs evil/god vs satan. Jacob/God/Good was killed, so now we must we must witness the absence of God in the world/island. Of course, Satan was not able to kill God - enter Ben.

Anyway, something about the notion of souls seems particularly poignant. Is the chasm between AR and the island related to their souls....AR is depicting their soul, thus Boone and Charlie are there...???

minimicrocosm
02-03-2010, 05:20 AM
forget about the bomb putting the island under water!!!

it got pulled under just like we saw when some of the losties were trying to get back to it via helicopter. It was MOVED not blasted.

jtavano
02-03-2010, 05:27 AM
Lost is not a christian themed show...it's not a god/devil conflict.

Hart
02-03-2010, 05:29 AM
man, i hope not.

locke-n-load
02-03-2010, 05:32 AM
I was struck when AR Locke mentioned the "soul" of Christian Shepard. I believe that the main theme going on is good vs evil/god vs satan. Jacob/God/Good was killed, so now we must we must witness the absence of God in the world/island. Of course, Satan was not able to kill God - enter Ben.

Anyway, something about the notion of souls seems particularly poignant. Is the chasm between AR and the island related to their souls....AR is depicting their soul, thus Boone and Charlie are there...???

go read the bible. im watchin lost

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 05:38 AM
Lost is not a christian themed show...it's not a god/devil conflict.

It definitely has Biblical themes, but it's not attempting to be a parable, or worse, preaching. It's just riffing on cultural concepts and symbols.

bj2745
02-03-2010, 05:39 AM
Lost is not a christian themed show...it's not a god/devil conflict.

Based on what?

scott_burke
02-03-2010, 05:40 AM
Lost

like most other dramas

is based on character development and good versus evil.


:p

bj2745
02-03-2010, 05:40 AM
It definitely has Biblical themes, but it's not attempting to be a parable, or worse, preaching. It's just riffing on cultural concepts and symbols.

It has clear allusions to the basic Biblical story, not the least of which being, erm, Jacob, i.e. the father of Israel, and some clear Luciferian overtures for MIB, who would be the main metaphysical enemy of Israel. I don't think it's preachy, but I think there's a lot of bells and whistles in the way of Biblical allusion.

vancurenw
02-03-2010, 05:48 AM
It has clear allusions to the basic Biblical story, not the least of which being, erm, Jacob, i.e. the father of Israel, and some clear Luciferian overtures for MIB, who would be the main metaphysical enemy of Israel. I don't think it's preachy, but I think there's a lot of bells and whistles in the way of Biblical allusion.

Not to mention a main character named Jack Shepard, with a father named Christian Shepard. You cannot get more biblical than that.

¯\(°_o)/¯ Brian
02-03-2010, 06:12 AM
ok....Desmond....anyone else notice that he was only on the plane when they had just cleared the island....once they got away from it....he was gone....

Burninate88
02-03-2010, 06:22 AM
New posting here, read all of these, couldn't help but sharing.

First of all, I'm not so sure we're seeing an alternate reality. We've been told before that the universe always 'corrects itself.'

I firmly believe all the main characters (or at least the ones Jacob touched) will return to the island. I think the ‘alternate reality’ is really just us seeing the universe correcting itself between the time of the original flight and when the group flashed forward from the bomb. Jack will go back to get his father. Kate will flee to Australia again (or maybe another reason). Jack will fix Locke, who will then return for the walk-about- this explains Locke being able to walk. Sun and Jin will get deported because of the money issue, sent back. Hurley will go back for any number of reasons, I mean heck, he’s crazy. Sayid’s search for Nadia will lead him back, or maybe he will just be returning. Regardless, everyone necessary will end up on the same flight again, and they will return to the island.

Juliet was specifically never touched by Jacob, thus implying she wasn't meant to be there. The bomb wasn't meant to detonate, now the universe is correcting it (Juliet dying being part of this correction).

I think it'd help greatly to find out if in ANY previous episodes, Juliet was heard saying to someone "We should get coffee sometime." If this has happened outside of her connection with the rest of the gang, it could reveal her returning to her rightful place, outside this whole mess. If not, I'm betting we'll see her meet up with either Sawyer or Jack and say this line in our 'alternate reality.'

I'm pretty convinced Flocke's name will be revealed as Esau, simply based on Biblical parallels.

“Nice to see you out of those chains,” seems to be implying that Richard was once a slave on The Black Rock. While this very well may be true, Esau also could have meant this in an entirely metaphorically way. Now that Jacob has died, Richard may be freed from a certain set of rules, further opening the loophole ideas. Perhaps, for whatever reason, Richard was not aging as a curse- he was chained to serve Jacob. Now Jacob is gone, and Richard will age and die.

Perhaps Richard is Jacob OR Esau's son? Who freaking knows.

Any significance of Charlie almost dying by choking in the alternate reality, and dying by drowning originally (essentially choking).

Also, Sayid shot and essentially killed the good, child version of Ben. Ben’s father was the one who shot and ‘killed’ Sayid. Sayid was destined to die. Jacob only prevented it by saving him from dying with his wife by the car, much like Des prevented Charlie from dying, or Jacob prevented Locke from dying. Eventually, they DO die, the universe corrects itself. Locke was meant to die, he did. Now Esau is using his body. Sayid was meant to die, he did. Maybe Jacob sent him to the temple so that after he was officially dead, Jacob could resume in Sayid’s body.

Those are my scattered, thrown together thoughts for now. Let me know what you think.

m8o
02-03-2010, 06:23 AM
ok....Desmond....anyone else notice that he was only on the plane when they had just cleared the island....once they got away from it....he was gone.... Lol... if he's on the island, he's underwater... hope the Swan was designed to seal against salt water. :p

p.s. I don't think I saw a single episode last season with less posts in it by this time compared to here. I didn't do any post-shoring myself either. Good to see everyone focusing on the show instead of posting and missing things.

charlajw
02-03-2010, 06:24 AM
Just to clarify....a "Christian"-themed show would require the presence of a Christ. The plot has very clear allusions to Biblical themes. I am just wondering if anyone else finds value in the notion of souls that was brought up by AR John Locke. What, if any, meaning might this have.

(btw, no one needs to get an attitude with my remarks. It's a perfectly valid standpoint)

charlajw
02-03-2010, 06:29 AM
ok....Desmond....anyone else notice that he was only on the plane when they had just cleared the island....once they got away from it....he was gone....


Hmm..even though the island was under water, maybe he can only exist in that space/time. Good catch:D

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 06:37 AM
Just to clarify....a "Christian"-themed show would require the presence of a Christ. The plot has very clear allusions to Biblical themes. I am just wondering if anyone else finds value in the notion of souls that was brought up by AR John Locke. What, if any, meaning might this have.

(btw, no one needs to get an attitude with my remarks. It's a perfectly valid standpoint)

I think the point Locke was making, referencing Miles' comment in the (I think) "The Economist" episode where he says that Naomi's body isn't really her, it's just a pile of meat now, was that Jack's dad was already gone in the mental/emotional/metaphysical sense, and that the physical body was just a pile of organic matter now.

mferran
02-03-2010, 06:41 AM
Did anyone notice that in the Crashless timeline Jack's hair is longer than it was when they first crashed? Blooper or one of the things that changed in this new timeline?

Hart
02-03-2010, 06:43 AM
Any significance of Charlie almost dying by choking in the alternate reality, and dying by drowning originally (essentially choking).

What exactly was going on there? Was Charlie attempting to commit suicide by ingesting a large quantity of heroin (bag and all), then ended up choking on it instead, then Jack saved him?

If so, I wonder the significance of choking on it, rather than just swallowing it and still being saved.

NamedOurDogHurley
02-03-2010, 07:01 AM
Did anyone notice that in the Crashless timeline Jack's hair is longer than it was when they first crashed? Blooper or one of the things that changed in this new timeline?

I noticed Rose's hair was also much shorter! It's a minor detail (I know)- but by now they know we watch so closely it's unlikely they'd include a blooper like that unless the Losties lives up to that point were actually different.

LancasterLancaster
02-03-2010, 07:08 AM
Was it just me or when Sayid said "What Happened?", he had the voice of Charles Widmore

I've watched it a few times now and am convinced

stay_out_of_this_metro
02-03-2010, 07:13 AM
What exactly was going on there? Was Charlie attempting to commit suicide by ingesting a large quantity of heroin (bag and all), then ended up choking on it instead, then Jack saved him?

If so, I wonder the significance of choking on it, rather than just swallowing it and still being saved.

He was trying to kill himself judging by the way he reacted to Jack saving him. Also he would have used the heroine and not swallowed it in the bag if he wasn't trying to kill himself.

I thought it was kind of obvious that things were different on the plane. Such as Hurley claiming he is the luckiest man in the world and embracing his fame by showing up in commercials. Apparently Locke went on his walk-a-bout also despite his condition.

TakeMeToTheIsland
02-03-2010, 07:13 AM
Thoughts on the episode:

1. I thought it was interesting to note that Shannon was absent on the flight to LAX. I wonder if this was intentional, or whether they simply couldn't get actress Maggie Grace to come back on the show to shoot a few minor scenes, and they decided to just write it off simply and have Boone say she never came back with him to LA. Either way, I thought this was a strange thing.

2. It's nice to get some answers about Smokey, and that it is another form that The Man in Black takes. However, my confusion is that in The Shape of Things to Come, Smokey is "summoned" by Ben in that underground chamber underneath his house at the Barracks. If The Man in Black answers to no one, did he only respond to the summoning because he knew he could manipulate Ben into doing his bidding? It's also interesting to connect the dots and understand why Smokey spared Locke when they first meet. Locke says he looked into Smokey and saw something, and perhaps this was when the Man in Black realized he could use Locke as one of his chess pieces in his bout against Jacob.

3. Juliet said "it worked". It's safe to assume she didn't mean the bomb worked, because otherwise she would have been blown to bits, and the island would not exist, etc etc. I won't speculate on what she meant yet. Considering we have alterna-scenes with the Losties arriving at LAX, I'll reserve my thoughts for when we figure out why they play both timelines out.

4. Personally I didn't see any significance in Charlie choking on the bag of heroin. I thought it was simply a thematic device meant to drive home the point that Jack is the kind of character who really just wants to save people, even those who don't necessarily want to be saved (like Juliet and Sawyer, who were perfectly happy in 1970s DHARMA).

5. I was pleased to see some allusions to the Black Rock and Richard Alpert's connection to it. My theories seem almost confirmed that Alpert was part of the Black Rock (The Man in Black said "I'm happy to see you without the chains", referring to those prisoners who were shackled on the Black Rock perhaps?). I'm excited to see what other answers are in store for this aspect of the story.

Jaded-Dragon
02-03-2010, 07:24 AM
2 theories about Desmond

1: The reason he was on the plane was because the island was at the bottom of the sea and had no Magnetic Anomaly, he was able to complete his sailboat race to Sydney (which is what he was doing when he landed on the island) and was simply boarding a plane back to LA.

Another option would be...

2: We've seen that Desmond has the ability to change things. When Faraday knocked on the door of hatch and told Desmond to find him at Berkley, that memory suddenly came to Desmond in the present time. We've also seen Desmond change things in the past, like when he told the bar tender to duck.

I think that either Desmond is the first to realize that something is wrong in the ATL, and attempts to fix it, which is why he suddenly disappeared on the flight, OR perhaps he is visited again in the past by someone again who explains the ATL to him and then he tries to fix it.

Of course, all of this could be null and void if you want to say that the nuke stopped him from ever going to the island in the ATL, and there for he never gained the ability to see the future or change things in the past.

But perhaps, maybe for some reason, Desmond can go between both time lines?

I don't friggin' know anymore, but I can guarantee that Desmond is going to play a very large role in correcting the time lines or merging the time lines.

On a side note: At the end of episode 2 did anyone watch the clips of upcoming scenes? Some very interesting images were in there.

Hart
02-03-2010, 07:28 AM
Thoughts on the episode:

1. I thought it was interesting to note that Shannon was absent on the flight to LAX. I wonder if this was intentional, or whether they simply couldn't get actress Maggie Grace...

2. It's nice to get some answers about Smokey, and that it is another form that The Man in Black takes. However, my confusion is that in The Shape of Things to Come, Smokey is "summoned" by Ben in that underground chamber underneath his house at the Barracks. If The Man in Black answers to no one...

3. Juliet said "it worked". It's safe to assume she didn't mean the bomb worked, because otherwise she would have been blown to bits, and the island would not exist, etc...

4. Personally I didn't see any significance in Charlie choking on the bag of heroin...

1. I don't keep up with out-of-the-show showbiz stuff, but I assume Maggie Grace couldn't/wouldn't appear, so to explain her not being on the plane, they had Boone simply shrug it off as "I tried, but didn't succeed" to rescue her from a bad relationship.

2. This is confusing. In the past, the smoke monster has done some things it doesn't seem MiB would do and like you say, it has seemed like Ben had some sort of control or, at the least, a cooperative relationship with Smokey. I don't get the impression, though, that Ben has any clue who MiB is. Kinda weird.

3. One can only assume that while the bomb may not have exploded in their reality, the goal of the bomb exploding did, in fact, work. What else in the world could she have been talking about? However, how she was privy to this information is beyond me.

4. To be sure, but why bother to even come up with the choking thing? Everybody knows Charlie was an addict. Why not just have him attempting a suicide by overdosing and the same scenario follows - someone notices somebody's been in the loo too long, they go get Jack to save the day.

sumo390
02-03-2010, 07:30 AM
WOW, what a season opener. Lots of stuff happening and I'm not sure what the hell is behind it all haha.

My theory about the losties on the island and losties back in LA is a stupid one but for some reason makes sense to me. I think that the timeline in LA takes place after the timeline on the island. So they are showing us what happens when the plane actually lands after they prevent the plane from crashing for real.
So, Island time ----> Back to LA time.
Bleh, I'm not good at theories haha.

My Name Is Benjamin Linus
02-03-2010, 07:35 AM
To be sure, but why bother to even come up with the choking thing? Everybody knows Charlie was an addict. Why not just have him attempting a suicide by overdosing and the same scenario follows - someone notices somebody's been in the loo too long, they go get Jack to save the day.

It didn't seem like suicide to me. It isn't unheard of for an addict to swallow a bag to conceal it and then bring it up later. Maybe he was being paranoid.

stay_out_of_this_metro
02-03-2010, 07:39 AM
It didn't seem like suicide to me. It isn't unheard of for an addict to swallow a bag to conceal it and then bring it up later. Maybe he was being paranoid.

Then why was he so mad at Jack for saving his life? Why is everyone ignoring the obvious reactions of the characters?

Jaded-Dragon
02-03-2010, 07:44 AM
Just thought of something and had to check it out... turns out I was right...

After the Others took Walt, they gave Michael a list of names on a piece of paper, 4 names that he had to bring back with him. A piece of paper that looked much like the one broken open by the Others at the temple. The 4 names on the list were Jack, Kate, James, and Hurly.

The 4 people at the temple were Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurly. Coincidence?

stay_out_of_this_metro
02-03-2010, 07:46 AM
Just thought of something and had to check it out... turns out I was right...

After the Others took Walt, they gave Michael a list of names on a piece of paper, 4 names that he had to bring back with him. A piece of paper that looked much like the one broken open by the Others at the temple. The 4 names on the list were Jack, Kate, James, and Hurly.

The 4 people at the temple were Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurly. Coincidence?

You left out Jin and Miles.

Edit: and Sayid

VirginMary'sEko
02-03-2010, 07:46 AM
With regards to the various Judeo-Christian references.

We need to recall that the Island is riddled with significant Egyptian references as well, i.e. heiroglyphs and the statue of Tawaret. (I'm sure that the theorized notion that Egyptians were so advanced due to alien visitation has also been surmised elsewhere in the forums.) However, I think it would be unwise to discount the usage of many mythologies, yes this includes Judeo-Christianity as being considered in a mythical sense rather than actual, and that it is one of many belief systems being utilized in Lost's mythology. Perhaps the Island is their creator? Look at the temple, for instance. It is obviously a Step Pyramid design which is remarkably South American (Incan, Mayan, or Aztecan). This further demonstrates that we need to delve deeper into what is actually being referenced here. Do we also need to delve into ancient South American mythology to further grasp some of these concepts?

Q: Is there a correlation between Jacob and MiB in regards to the mythical conflict between Horus and Set?

My ancient mythology is a tad bit rusty, but there's definitely more at work here than meets the eye. I can't wait to see how this all works out!

TakeMeToTheIsland
02-03-2010, 07:50 AM
1. I don't keep up with out-of-the-show showbiz stuff, but I assume Maggie Grace couldn't/wouldn't appear, so to explain her not being on the plane, they had Boone simply shrug it off as "I tried, but didn't succeed" to rescue her from a bad relationship.

2. This is confusing. In the past, the smoke monster has done some things it doesn't seem MiB would do and like you say, it has seemed like Ben had some sort of control or, at the least, a cooperative relationship with Smokey. I don't get the impression, though, that Ben has any clue who MiB is. Kinda weird.

3. One can only assume that while the bomb may not have exploded in their reality, the goal of the bomb exploding did, in fact, work. What else in the world could she have been talking about? However, how she was privy to this information is beyond me.

4. To be sure, but why bother to even come up with the choking thing? Everybody knows Charlie was an addict. Why not just have him attempting a suicide by overdosing and the same scenario follows - someone notices somebody's been in the loo too long, they go get Jack to save the day.

1. I got that part, however I don't know how the writers will be able to explain this inconsistency. It's not enough that Boone says he never got her on the plane. We know he DID get her on the plane, we know she was on the island and that she died there. Everyone else seems to be accounted for. It seems like a very strange thing to do. If they couldn't get Maggie Grace to shoot these scenes on the plane, they could've written it off a different way. Like, have Boone say she went to the bathroom, or whatever. Any excuse to make it seem like she was on the plane, but we just don't see her.

2. I'm confused about the Man in Black acting through Smokey as well. Smokey was able to access the tunnel that leads up to the Temple where the Others are at. He dragged Montand down the tunnel. How are the Others in the 70s able to access this tunnel without being attacked by Smokey? Or perhaps I'm assuming they have not been attacked. Smokey/MiB can't be at two places at once.

3. Well, while Flight 815 was flying over the ocean, we get a glimpse of the island underwater. Is it safe to say this is the result of the bomb exploding? Could this be what Juliet meant by "it worked"? To me, this means that we are seeing two timeline points at the same time. Two realities at the same time.

4. I really don't think manner of dying is important. If Charlie was going to die, he was going to die by any possible means. This was what Desmond's flashes in season 3 were telling us. Just because he ultimately died by drowning, doesn't mean that some other for of asphyxia will be the death of him at an alternate reality. As I said, I think the more important point was to emphasize Jack's intent on saving people (which is why you have him also trying to save Sayid in the 70s island, and being torn up about Juliet's death).

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 07:50 AM
Then why was he so mad at Jack for saving his life? Why is everyone ignoring the obvious reactions of the characters?

Maybe because he was being arrested? Or that he was just being generally spiteful?

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 07:51 AM
Sorry I have not read the whole thread, but am responding to what I read in the first 10 pages or so. There, it was put forth the theory that Lost is about a battle between good (Jacob) and evil (MiB). That is not the case. I believe that the current producers of the show (since JJ is not involved anymore, right) are fans of an old sci-fi show called Babylon 5. That show was about two ancient powerful alien races who were engaged in a battle in between not good and evil (which is Star Wars) but in between Order and Chaos. These two races had called a truce and had agreed to not directly attack each other, but were allowed to affect the lives of the younger races (like humans), which eventually led to them breaking the truce and going to war again. I will not tell you how it ended in case I am right. But I see many similarities in Lost right now, and I believe that Lost is actually a battle between faith/destiny (Jacob) and logic/free will (MiB). Neither is good nor evil. They had agreed to a truce with each other and could not attack each other directly. However the MiB found a loophole in that Locke was dead, but Richard did not know it and didn't appont a new leader, and so Ben (who was leader again by virtue of Locke dying) was allowed into the statue and was able to kill Jacob, when MiB couldn't touch him. And MiB is not evil, just using people like pawns in a game (much like Jacob is) which explains why some people were spared by the black smoke monster.

And on the AR thing, the AR only exists because the island was blown up in 1977. Which means that the AR depends on the original reality also existing, otherwise it never happened, which is why you have to now have two timelines. Stuff is a little different in AR because remember that the timeline didn't split on Oceanic 815, it split way back in 1977, so there's 30 years worth of tiny changes that rippled through (like Desmond never being trapped on the island because it wasn't there).

ballyhoo
02-03-2010, 07:51 AM
maybe home is the temple??

tkarcher
02-03-2010, 07:52 AM
What do you think about this:

When Juliette was saying her dying words, she asked if Sawyer would like some tea. She was actually in between the two planes of existence as she was dying and was asking her sister or someone else for tea in the other reality. This is why she said it worked. She realized that the alternate reality was created.

stay_out_of_this_metro
02-03-2010, 07:52 AM
Maybe because he was being arrested? Or that he was just being generally spiteful?

Well I don't think he would wake up wondering if he was dead and then immediately hate that he wasn't unless he was trying to kill himself.

Loster than you
02-03-2010, 07:56 AM
im just sayin but wasnt the 4 toed statue in chains?

also, i think that the list didnt literally say that this would happen but instead was just a list with their names on it

My Name Is Benjamin Linus
02-03-2010, 07:59 AM
Then why was he so mad at Jack for saving his life? Why is everyone ignoring the obvious reactions of the characters?

Because we are watching Lost...

Now, in Season 1, Charlie looked like all he wanted to do in that bathroom was get his snort on. Maybe you want to be the Debbie Downer here, but he had another reason for being pissed at Jack: Jack pulled a bag of heroin out of his throat and pretty much handed it to the police. And it's sort of in Charlie's character to be a prissy sod to people who are just trying to help him.

JD84
02-03-2010, 08:01 AM
A few thoughts

Island underwater means that jughead worked and with the electromagnetism created a new reality where 815 never crashes, that means the others & the rest of dharma died at the time of the incident. In the original reality hatch is built 815 crashes, the timeline we've been seeing since season 1. But I dont think its a reset or a What if? scenario but the two timlines are interwined, Jack seemed to recognize Des and he looked like he knew something was wrong.

So in the ALT Des never meets Penny or goes on the race since Widmore is probaly dead. But Des being special adn the mystery of his appearance on 815 makes me think hes really important in the ALT and may remember everything.

ALT Charlie wants to die I wonder why? Maybe he knows something

I think the losties were brought to the island to stop MIB.

Where is home? Im thinkin the island is a prison for smokey and maybe Jacob was the guardian.

Richard was on the black rock as a slave and the japanese guy too, Jacob made them ageless and they were to protect the island. Japanese guy was assigned to the temple, Richard was in charge of the rest and for some reason needed to find other leaders.

Ash is used to stop smokey, Bram wasnt too smart though, glad hes dead

Sayid came back to life!!! Him and Ben now have more in common, Sayid probaly wont remember anything like Ben and might be the new leader of the others.

ALT reality is very interesting. Claire in the cab was surprising but I knew she would show up somewhere soon. Christians body gone is wierd, Kate escaping was awesome. jack and Locke scene was EPIC. I wonder how much is changed in this ALT

What a great episode

stay_out_of_this_metro
02-03-2010, 08:05 AM
Because we are watching Lost...

Now, in Season 1, Charlie looked like all he wanted to do in that bathroom was get his snort on. Maybe you want to be the Debbie Downer here, but he had another reason for being pissed at Jack: Jack pulled a bag of heroin out of his throat and pretty much handed it to the police. And it's sort of in Charlie's character to be a prissy sod to people who are just trying to help him.

My point is that the characters were (what I thought) completely obviously different in their viewpoints and what had happened to them before the flight from which we saw them in the pilot episode. Here are my examples I can think of off the top of my head:
Rose was confident during the turbulence.
Charlie didn't snort, he swallowed the heroin.
Boone wasn't with Shannon.
Hurley believed himself to be the luckiest man alive.
We didn't see Michael and Walt (perhaps Walt's mom is still alive).
Sawyer is all smiling and friendly and not angry and standoffish.
Locke seemed to have been in high spirits and went on his walk-a-bout.

TakeMeToTheIsland
02-03-2010, 08:05 AM
Hmm it seemed pretty obvious to me that Charlie intentionally swallowed the heroin. If he simply wanted to get buzzed, he would've known how to use it (i.e. coating the heroin on his gums, snorting it, etc.). Instead, he tried to swallow the whole bag. To me, it means that Charlie went to the bathroom with every intention to get a hit, but got angry at himself for doing so, and all the bad things in his life came crashing down on him (his issues with his brother, his band, etc) and he thought he would take the easy way out by committing suicide, hence the disappointment in his voice when Jack told him he was alive. The dirty look at Jack was more of a "great, you saved my life and look what I have to look forward to! Jail time!"

Hart
02-03-2010, 08:11 AM
My point is that the characters were (what I thought) completely obviously different in their viewpoints and what had happened to them before the flight from which we saw them in the pilot episode. Here are my examples I can think of off the top of my head:
Rose was confident during the turbulence.
Charlie didn't snort, he swallowed the heroin.
Boone wasn't with Shannon.
Hurley believed himself to be the luckiest man alive.
We didn't see Michael and Walt (perhaps Walt's mom is still alive).
Sawyer is all smiling and friendly and not angry and standoffish.
Locke seemed to have been in high spirits and went on his walk-a-bout.

Exactly

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 08:13 AM
"shes, the timeline we've been seeing since season 1. But I dont think its a reset or a What if? scenario but the two timlines are interwined, Jack seemed to recognize Des and he looked like he knew something was wrong."

Jack met Desmond off the island. Remember the running up and down the stairs in the stadium? That's why he remembers him on the plane.

JD84
02-03-2010, 08:32 AM
"shes, the timeline we've been seeing since season 1. But I dont think its a reset or a What if? scenario but the two timlines are interwined, Jack seemed to recognize Des and he looked like he knew something was wrong."

Jack met Desmond off the island. Remember the running up and down the stairs in the stadium? That's why he remembers him on the plane.

I bet he didnt even sign up for the race in the AR. Widmore most likey died when the island sunk.

But i do beilive Jack remembers Des from the stadium but from the original timeline where it happened, jack is having some memories cross over and even some blood too.

SammyD
02-03-2010, 08:37 AM
Sorry I have not read the whole thread, but am responding to what I read in the first 10 pages or so. There, it was put forth the theory that Lost is about a battle between good (Jacob) and evil (MiB). That is not the case. I believe that the current producers of the show (since JJ is not involved anymore, right) are fans of an old sci-fi show called Babylon 5. That show was about two ancient powerful alien races who were engaged in a battle in between not good and evil (which is Star Wars) but in between Order and Chaos. These two races had called a truce and had agreed to not directly attack each other, but were allowed to affect the lives of the younger races (like humans), which eventually led to them breaking the truce and going to war again. I will not tell you how it ended in case I am right. But I see many similarities in Lost right now, and I believe that Lost is actually a battle between faith/destiny (Jacob) and logic/free will (MiB). Neither is good nor evil. They had agreed to a truce with each other and could not attack each other directly. However the MiB found a loophole in that Locke was dead, but Richard did not know it and didn't appont a new leader, and so Ben (who was leader again by virtue of Locke dying) was allowed into the statue and was able to kill Jacob, when MiB couldn't touch him. And MiB is not evil, just using people like pawns in a game (much like Jacob is) which explains why some people were spared by the black smoke monster.


I completely agree with this. I don't know why so many people are assuming that MiB is evil and Jacob is good. Let's not forget that Jacob has also killed a lot of people. He was the one to bring people to the island in the first place, which obviously didn't turn out so well. It turned out exactly as MiB said it would. MiB knew that strangers coming to the Island would cause chaos, but Jacob didn't care...that's what he wanted.

Also, I'm not sure why, but the Smoke Monster always reminded me of a "genie in the bottle" sort of thing. I think that MiB may have been cursed by Jacob into becoming the Smoke Monster. MiB is trapped in that form until he can find other forms to take. In other words, he is "shackled" to an eternal life as the Smoke Monster.

I think Richard once followed MiB, but then for some reason, decided to betray him (much like Ben did to the Dharma Initiative) and team up with Jacob. Because of this, Jacob gave Richard immortality, thus securing himself a "slave" for life.

I also think the first time Locke sees the Smoke Monster is incredibly significant because it looks beautiful to him. Why does it look so beautiful to him and no one else? Does the Smoke Monster/MiB see how Locke will help him in the future? I at least think MiB sees something lonely/empty within Locke and knows Locke will fit the perfect role for him to finally find his loophole.

Anyway, those are my thoughts! Ahh, can't wait until next week!! :)

DocGoodwin
02-03-2010, 08:45 AM
Ok, my theories.

Flocke/TheSmokeMonster are the protagonists of this story. The ash was to keep the MIB IN the cabin, not to keep Jacob safe. The survivors of 815 broke the ash, somehow, unbeknownst to the Jacob, but knownst to MiB. That was the way he was able to get out and start his work to undo the entrapment Jacob had put him through since shortly after the Blackrock arrived on the island carrying Richard Alpert. It was at that time Jacob usurped MiB and finally trapped him. They are unable to hurt eachother in anyway. The MiB uses physical and mental influence to get what he wants, Jacob uses pure manipulation. The reason I come to this conclusion is because this is what the show is leading me towards. That the white is good and the black is bad. I suspect a dramatic reversal at the end.

Even though we've seen a picture of Alvar Hanso previously as an older white dude, I believe that that picture was fake. The Oriental guy in charge of the Others inside the temple is Alvar Hanso. He was "kidnapped" by them which started the whole war with the Initiative.

Probably lots of holes apart from the previously pictured Hanso. He's just too important to leave out of the series entirely apart from a picture.

miss tina
02-03-2010, 08:51 AM
1. juliets last words about meeting for coffee sometime reminded me of the scene last season with Charlette and Faraday right before she died when she was all out of it and talking about how she wasn't allowed to have chocolate before dinner or something...like mentally they are in another time. Dont know how relevant it is but I definitely don't feel like we are done with Juliet.

2. I think it was really significant when the temple others brought Sayid to the pond in the temple and were confused to see the water wasn't clear...Could that be because Jacob was dead? Maybe I'm thinking too far into it but it almost looked like there was blood in the water. Either way, Sayid is going to be different in a big way. The Japanese guy even said something to Jack about there "being risks" to saving Sayid...can't wait to see what those are

3. We all remember back when Faraday met Des at the hatch and told him to go to Oxford but I seem to remeber him saying something like "the rules don't apply to you". And then he clearly disappears on the plane...

4. Also, Claire will be back. In the past, the revelation of Claire and Jack being half siblings was way too big of a shocker to go without them ever finding out.

5. I was also under the impression that the man in black was able to inhabit the bodies of dead people (aka Locke and Christian Sheppard) but now I'm remembering way back after the crash when Jack found the coffin on the island and his dad wasnt in it, but Locke's body was still clearly there....Also, could it have then been the MIB inhabiting the body of Mr. Eko's brother when he kept seeing him?

Hart
02-03-2010, 08:51 AM
I think that MiB may have been cursed by Jacob into becoming the Smoke Monster. MiB is trapped in that form until he can find other forms to take. In other words, he is "shackled" to an eternal life as the Smoke Monster. :)

I don't believe that Jacob cursed the MiB to be the smoke monster. For one thing, it seems that the smoke monster is a tool that is used by the MiB to make things happen, not so much a state in which he is left to suffer. For instance, when he activates the smoke monster to run rampant within the temple and kill enemies, that is surely by choice, not because he has been ... oh my god, i am so drunk ... cursed by Jake. Also, the MiB (oh, to hear some Johnny Cash playing behind these scenes), assumed the "shape" of Locke, in addition to Smokey in this episode which indicates to me that he has some sort of free will as it pertains to his appearance and his desires. He is definitely not "shackled" permanently as the smoke monster.

DocGoodwin
02-03-2010, 08:57 AM
I don't believe that Jacob cursed the MiB to be the smoke monster. For one thing, it seems that the smoke monster is a tool that is used by the MiB to make things happen, not so much a state in which he is left to suffer. For instance, when he activates the smoke monster to run rampant within the temple and kill enemies, that is surely by choice, not because he has been ... oh my god, i am so drunk ... cursed by Jake. Also, the MiB (oh, to hear some Johnny Cash playing behind these scenes), assumed the "shape" of Locke, in addition to Smokey in this episode which indicates to me that he has some sort of free will as it pertains to his appearance and his desires. He is definitely not "shackled" permanently as the smoke monster.

Wasn't a line from last night's episode, "I am sorry you to see ME like that." ? Seems a bit beyond "tool".

declan91
02-03-2010, 08:59 AM
anyone else love the reference in Bram's death to Bram Stoker and a vampire's death, a wooden stake through the heart. :)

ingloriousbasterd
02-03-2010, 09:24 AM
reflecting on the AR concept...and desmonds disapperance on the plane, and his unique abilities within the whole time traveling idea...

reading the posts i remembered that desmond tells jack "see you in another life, brothah"

at first i thought then when they met on the island, that was what desmond was talking about...but now that desmond and jack have met in this AR, perhaps this is the "other life" desmond was actually talking about

perhaps the AR is a sort of afterlife because when juliet, sayiid, and charlotte die, they start speaking gibbirsh, but as if they see a glimpse of another life. juliet talks about getting coffee/tea, sayiid asks hurly about what happens in the afterlife, and charlotte talks about chocolate and dinner or something

so it seems that when the characters are close to death. they get a glimpse of this AR, or afterlife. perhaps thats how juliet knows it worked, because she is in this afterlife.

also it was interesting when miles was next to sayiids dead body and was giving a weird face and jin asks what and miles blows it off...but he probably heard sayiid talking about something...perhaps something he was saying in his afterlife

SammyD
02-03-2010, 09:31 AM
I don't believe that Jacob cursed the MiB to be the smoke monster. For instance, when he activates the smoke monster to run rampant within the temple and kill enemies, that is surely by choice, not because he has been ... oh my god, i am so drunk ... cursed by Jake.



True, but when he runs rampant in the temple, Jacob is dead, thus freeing him. And to clarify, I think that when the plane crashed on the island, this gave MiB a lot of other "forms/shapes" to choose from since so many of the passengers died.

When Rousseau's boat crashed onto the island, for example, he takes the shape of her boyfriend at the time. She immediately recognizes that this isn't the same man she knows and that the smoke monster "made him sick". At this point in time, MiB didn't have many choices regarding the forms/shapes he could take, so he killed those men, trying to find some way to attain his goal of killing Jacob. But alas, he realizes that he will just have to patiently wait, as the Smoke Monster, until he can find his loophole....which is why the plane crash changes everything for him.

miss tina
02-03-2010, 09:35 AM
also it was interesting when miles was next to sayiids dead body and was giving a weird face and jin asks what and miles blows it off...but he probably heard sayiid talking about something...perhaps something he was saying in his afterlife

I noticed Miles' reaction too. I was under the impression that either he was
a)puzzled that he wasn't hearing anything (ie Sayid wasnt really dead) or b)he was hearing something crazy going on in Sayid's head (maybe Sayid's afterlife thoughts or MAYBE thoughts that weren't actually Sayid's.)

WeedMage
02-03-2010, 09:45 AM
I thought the weird face Miles made when looking at Sayid was that Miles wasn't getting the usual vibe from a dead person, which meant that Sayid wasn't dead. But I'm also leaning toward the Jacob is now occupying Sayid's body theory...

When AR Jack was looking at himself in the mirror on the plane, did anyone else think his reflection looked weird? Like it was an older Jack - did he have grey in his hair and older looking skin? It didn't seem that Jack saw anything different - but it just looked different to me. (Other than his hair length. I also don't remember Charlie's hair being so short in the first episode.)

I think the alternate reality part is just that - not a continuation of the original flight without crashing - just a different reality, so any changes there of "pre-crash" lives is just because it's a different reality. I think Locke was lying about his walk-about - for whatever reason - just to make it seem like he was someone different.

Why is everyone calling the Temple people - the Others? Were there "Others" in that group? I just kept thinking - oh no, not another group of new people! Altho there was the flight attendent and something with the kids, but I didn't see them as just another off-shoot of Others.

As someone already pointed out - what makes the MiB a bad guy and Jacob a good guy? I know the Others and Ilyana (sp?) - the Jacob followers keep saying - we're the good guys, but that's just kind of a given. If you think what you're doing is right - you're the good guys.

I think the AR is a way to tell another story - how these people that we know ended up interacting together anyways, even tho they didn't crash on an island. Might just be a way to fill up some time or maybe it will turn around on itself and come into play with the story that's been told for the past five years.

This is like reading a really good book - you want to get to the end - to find out what happens, but when we get there, it will be over and that will be a sad thing.

Jakob_from_Sweden
02-03-2010, 09:54 AM
Awesome ep!

I have a question about Richard and the AR; in season 5 Richard told Sun that he "watched them all die" referring to Jack et al. Does he have some kind of insight in both realities? It confuses the hell out of me ... The island is sunk/destroyed in the AR but Richard can tell Sun about it in the other reality?

About Smokie/MiB: in the first season when locke, kate and michael tries to hunt boar for the first time- locke presumably encounters smokey. Locke later says "i looked into the eye of this island, and what i saw was beautiful" (or something like that).

I think Smokie presented himself to Locke in a good/beautiful way to convince Locke that the island was special, making locke not to leave. In order to get to Jacob, Smokey had to take the form of a person who does not want to leave the island (?).

TakeMeToTheIsland
02-03-2010, 09:55 AM
Why is everyone calling the Temple people - the Others? Were there "Others" in that group? I just kept thinking - oh no, not another group of new people! Altho there was the flight attendent and something with the kids, but I didn't see them as just another off-shoot of Others.

I think most of us call them the Others because they are Jacob's pack. Ben and the rest of his group (Alpert, etc) are part of Jacob's pack. At the same time they are the ones who inhabit the more primitive parts of the island like the Temple and the statue, which seems to be more of the Others' MO prior to their occupation of the DHARMA stations.

What puzzles me is how Cindy and the kids managed to incorporate themselves into the...let's call them the Temple-folk, or Templetons haha :D If you recall, Cindy and the kids, Zach and Emma, were the ones who were kidnapped by the Others in season 2, while they were with the Tailies. We saw them in season 3 at the Hydra station, but after that we don't really see them. Unless I'm missing something and they were at Locke's camp when the island was moved in season 5. Anyway, I'd like to know why Cindy, Zach and Emma are the only ones from the actual flight 815 who are now with the Templetons. Especially since this is the 70s and it's not like the Others were particularly trusting of newcomers, least of all newcomers who looked funny and came from the future.How were they incorporated into their group? The only way I can explain this is the flashes. Cindy and the kids were transported into the 70s just like everyone else, and for some reason they are able to incorporate themselves into the Templeton group.

Celestial Dung
02-03-2010, 09:56 AM
I've done a few minutes so I don't think this has be answered...

When Sayid is telling Hurley that he's tortured and killed and he doesn' think where he's going is going to be pleasant he first asks Hurley to do something when he dies. I didn't understand that part. What did he ask?

miss tina
02-03-2010, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE=WeedMage;2175671] But I'm also leaning toward the Jacob is now occupying Sayid's body theory...
[QUOTE]

Although I realize its a possibility, I'll be seriously disappointed if this becomes MIB/Locke vs. Jacob/Sayid. Too much shape shifting for me. :) Im hoping thats only something MIB can do...

warjianrumoelliu
02-03-2010, 10:11 AM
What puzzles me is how Cindy and the kids managed to incorporate themselves into the...let's call them the Temple-folk, or Templetons haha :D If you recall, Cindy and the kids, Zach and Emma, were the ones who were kidnapped by the Others in season 2, while they were with the Tailies. We saw them in season 3 at the Hydra station, but after that we don't really see them. Unless I'm missing something and they were at Locke's camp when the island was moved in season 5. Anyway, I'd like to know why Cindy, Zach and Emma are the only ones from the actual flight 815 who are now with the Templetons. Especially since this is the 70s and it's not like the Others were particularly trusting of newcomers, least of all newcomers who looked funny and came from the future.How were they incorporated into their group? The only way I can explain this is the flashes. Cindy and the kids were transported into the 70s just like everyone else, and for some reason they are able to incorporate themselves into the Templeton group.

Cindy and the kids are not in 1977, they are in 2007. They never flashed with the other Losties who didn't leave, possibly because they were Other-ized?

The sparks from the firework confirm this because the rocket was fired from the Temple and seen by the Ajira 316 people (Sun, Lapidus, RIchard)/the Others on the beach.

TakeMeToTheIsland
02-03-2010, 10:28 AM
Cindy and the kids are not in 1977, they are in 2007. They never flashed with the other Losties who didn't leave, possibly because they were Other-ized?

The sparks from the firework confirm this because the rocket was fired from the Temple and seen by the Ajira 316 people (Sun, Lapidus, RIchard)/the Others on the beach.

The current timeline of the island (where the Ajira Airways people, Ben and Subn are) is 2007. Jack, Kate, Hurley, etc. were in 1977 when they tried to blow up the Swan. At the end of season 5, there is a flash, which could mean Kate, Jack, etc are transported back to current island timeline in 2007 with Sun, Ben, Ajira Airways people, etc, which is why the fireworks could be seen.

My question is: Only the important people in the hierarchy of the Others knew the Temple existed. Ben made reference to it, as did Widmore and Eloise when they were on the island. But not everyone who is an Other knows about the Temple. Ben gives Alex a map to get to the Temple when he tells her to escape in "Meet Kevin Johnson". Karl was an another and he didn't know either. How come Cindy and the kids were able to get there with no delay? What is so special about them that they were able to get in?

mattepntr
02-03-2010, 10:33 AM
I took juliet's "it worked" line as something else.

at first she was saying she hit the bomb and it didn't work. but as she was dying she realized it did work. Maybe death brought her a view into the alternate reality...reality X. Sayid also woke up after the spring rebirth thing and was confused and said "what happened?" maybe as he was dead he saw the alternate reality as well.

My first prediction ever on LP- Sawyer and Juliet will meet in the AR. She will suggest they go get coffee. "We'll go dutch".

She glimpsed the AR and knew the bomb worked.

The_Loophole
02-03-2010, 11:37 AM
I´d like to share my theory too:

I think that Jacob knew he was gonna die and so he set everything up for Hurley to bring dying Sayid to the temple. When we saw the water and this guy said "why isn´t it clear?"...this is because Jacob is dead and he is in the water (maybe his soul or his mind or something). This also explains why the ceremony did not work on Sayid like it usually did or should (I´m thinking about young Ben who most certainly was put into the water too when he was shot by Sayid). So they all thought Sayid is dead...but what happened is that Jacob took over his body or Sayid has know control over Jacobs abilities...who knows. That´s why he is asking: "what happened"?

Jakob_from_Sweden
02-03-2010, 12:08 PM
haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this already has been suggested by someone; I do not think that there really is an "alternate reality". I see them as "what-if"-flashes, a new sort of narrative tool to tell an alternate story as what would have happened if the plane did not crash. When jughead went off they were "teleported" forward through time- but there were no "reset" as faraday suggested.

The only hole in this theory as I see it is that the island was supposedly destroyed and sunk to the bottom of the sea ...:confused:

munch
02-03-2010, 12:20 PM
haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this already has been suggested by someone; I do not think that there really is an "alternate reality". I see them as "what-if"-flashes, a new sort of narrative tool to tell an alternate story as what would have happened if the plane did not crash. When jughead went off they were "teleported" forward through time- but there were no "reset" as faraday suggested.

The only hole in this theory as I see it is that the island was supposedly destroyed and sunk to the bottom of the sea ...:confused:

im guessing we'll find out why the island was sunk... BUT -

maybe the island's at the bottom of the sea because whatever caused the AR, be it the jughead or something else, caused jacob to not need the plane to crash. if 815 isnt needed then the island doesn't need to be there. maybe it's sitting dormant under the water.

or maybe we'll end up in 2004 at some point, and the crew will sink the island so the electromagnetics are gone, and the plane doesn't crash.

or maybe it'll be explained perfectly in a way we can't imagine yet.

Krscho
02-03-2010, 12:27 PM
The qouestion that is intreign me is where is Christians body in the AR?

I belive he has a major role to play in this hole mess about AR.

lostinri
02-03-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm only on page 6 , I;m going 2 be here awhile....
--seems like the bomb changed the future in subtle ways (Hurley knew the numbers but they weren't cursed? or did he win with different #'s?)
--I saw the 1st plane scene on the ABC website and immediately thought Jack and Rose looked like they "knew". maybe it was just a look in their eyes that sort of said "remember when we said these words the first time?"
--if the bomb sunk the Island, maybe Penny was never born,which explains Desmond not being in hatch or on boat...
--Boone isn't clueless Boone anymore (he's a vampire :)

sorry if people said these things already-will read all pages eventually :) Happy Last Season!!!

Baaaal
02-03-2010, 12:38 PM
Anyone else think that the water in the temple being "impure" had to do something with Sayid shooting Ben in the Dharma time period? Also, i think it is entirely possible that Locke went on the walkabout, since we saw that the AR changed things that happened before tha plane (like Hurley winning the lottery, but not being cursed) Maybe the guy in Australia let him on the bus, thinking that his commitment will help him through the walkabout, despite his injury.

Sammet
02-03-2010, 12:52 PM
When they go inside the temple the translator says "The water isn't clear. What happened?"

Then the answer is in Japanese.

Anyone know what was said?

LOSTFTW7
02-03-2010, 01:02 PM
what was up with the cut on the side of jacks neck?
O and i truthfully believe that Jacob has taken over Sayid's body.

Baaaal
02-03-2010, 01:03 PM
They should have included the subs the same way they did when Sun and Jin were talking....i guess they wanted to add more myteries lol. At least i hope there are some Japanese speakers here who can translate :D

rplyler1
02-03-2010, 01:05 PM
I´d like to share my theory too:

I think that Jacob knew he was gonna die and so he set everything up for Hurley to bring dying Sayid to the temple. When we saw the water and this guy said "why isn´t it clear?"...this is because Jacob is dead and he is in the water (maybe his soul or his mind or something). This also explains why the ceremony did not work on Sayid like it usually did or should (I´m thinking about young Ben who most certainly was put into the water too when he was shot by Sayid). So they all thought Sayid is dead...but what happened is that Jacob took over his body or Sayid has know control over Jacobs abilities...who knows. That´s why he is asking: "what happened"?

I was wondering the same thing myself. If the MiB is the smoke monster, it is possible that Jacob is the healing water. Remember that he had the ability to heal Locke after he was thrown out of the window. And the water is no longer clear after Jacob is killed. Does any know what the Samurai said in Japanese when he was asked why the water was not clear anymore?

It also may answer the question as to why the men's bullet did not hurt Flocke but Ben was able to easily stab and kill Jacob. Remember that because Sayid shot and almost killed Ben in 1977, Ben was taken to the temple to be healed. And because of this I am assuming that he then has the ability to kill Jacob. If Jacob is a part of the water, then being revived by it may give the person a part of Jacob/ his abilities like mentioned above. If this were the case, it still does not explain why Ben had so many negative things happen to him while on the island. Thoughts???

LOSTFTW7
02-03-2010, 01:09 PM
I was wondering the same thing myself. If the MiB is the smoke monster, it is possible that Jacob is the healing water. Remember that he had the ability to heal Locke after he was thrown out of the window. And the water is no longer clear after Jacob is killed. Does any know what the Samurai said in Japanese when he was asked why the water was not clear anymore?

It also may answer the question as to why the men's bullet did not hurt Flocke but Ben was able to easily stab and kill Jacob. Remember that because Sayid shot and almost killed Ben in 1977, Ben was taken to the temple to be healed. And because of this I am assuming that he then has the ability to kill Jacob. If Jacob is a part of the water, then being revived by it may give the person a part of Jacob/ his abilities like mentioned above. If this were the case, it still does not explain why Ben had so many negative things happen to him while on the island. Thoughts???
Wow this is pretty interesting. I think thats its a sorta yin and yang thing going on between Jacob and MiB. At the first scene we saw them, they happened to be wearing black and white shirts, but thats just me.

Legion303
02-03-2010, 01:22 PM
I don't know why everyone is assuming the bomb sank the island. Surely the more reasonable explanation, based on what was shown on screen, is that the bomb blew the remains of the statue off the island. All I saw underwater was the foot itself--no ruins or evidence of other buildings.

EDIT: on re-watch, I see the village, so yes, the entire island (or at least huge chunks of it) are indeed under the ocean. I can't fathom (ha!) how an explosion would be able to do that without also leveling the houses, but maybe we'll get an explanation. Wow.

-steve

DharmaLlama
02-03-2010, 01:25 PM
My first post here, but really couldn't help myself after that awesome season premier.

Been reading through posts and seems people have presumed the pool of water brought Sayid back to life. Apologies if its been mentioned before, but in the temple we saw that the healing pool of water wasn't quite working as it should with the Japanese guy's hand not healing and him declaring Sayid didn't make it. But i thought it was really interesting that after jack went over to try to revive him, making some similarities with when he brought Charlie back to life the first time in S1, Sayid later woke up.

As soon as Jack went over to Sayid i knew he was gonna save him, i thought earlier in the ep when jack says something like "i cant do anything for him now" was really out of character but probably just a device for plot. Also in the AR Jack says to Locke "nothing is irreversable". Plus we all know Jack's 'destiny' is to fix things and he's a damn good Surgeon. Lastly the Scene of Jack trying to revive Sayid ended with a lingering shot of Jack knelt over Sayid with one hand on Sayid's chest kinda reminded me the way Jacob touched people and saved lives in the S5 Finale.

Just thought this was and interesting point and wondered if anyone else thought the same or had another take on it...

Little_Kang
02-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Ok I'm not reading 15 pages lol. But I have a couple questions/thoughts.

What did Flocke mean about Richard being in chains?

Did anyone else hear at the sound at the start when the plane hit turbolence, sounded alot like the swan station when it imploded.... but it didn't bring down the plane.


Could Oceanic losing Christians body be a reason that the plane didn't crash. Think about it, if Christians body wasn't on the plane then MiB wouldn't have a body to possess to connect to Locke.

Little_Kang
02-03-2010, 01:40 PM
Also I WANT TO KNOW WHY THE FOOT WAS IN THE WATER!

Ruthie
02-03-2010, 01:41 PM
This. I -really- don't see how Richard could have been a slave on the Black Rock. For one, I *really* get the feeling he's been around for longer than 150 years. For two? Richard is not African!

Africans were not the only people traded into slavery. Warring factions of all races sold their captured enemies into slavery at that time. In fact, they still do.

dgb100
02-03-2010, 01:41 PM
The history of Egypt and Israel (hence Christianity) are inexorably linked. The Jews were slaves of the Egyptians until Moses let them to the promised land. There really could be something to the Jacob-Esau story in the Bible. Definately not strictly good-evil, Jacob could be seen as very manipulative and even willing to take advantage of his own brother. The story is also pre-Egyptian slavery for the Israelites, so who knows.

The temple definately appear to be Central American, and as far as I recall Egyptian pyramids were strictly tombs not temples.

----------------------


With regards to the various Judeo-Christian references.

We need to recall that the Island is riddled with significant Egyptian references as well, i.e. heiroglyphs and the statue of Tawaret. (I'm sure that the theorized notion that Egyptians were so advanced due to alien visitation has also been surmised elsewhere in the forums.) However, I think it would be unwise to discount the usage of many mythologies, yes this includes Judeo-Christianity as being considered in a mythical sense rather than actual, and that it is one of many belief systems being utilized in Lost's mythology. Perhaps the Island is their creator? Look at the temple, for instance. It is obviously a Step Pyramid design which is remarkably South American (Incan, Mayan, or Aztecan). This further demonstrates that we need to delve deeper into what is actually being referenced here. Do we also need to delve into ancient South American mythology to further grasp some of these concepts?

Q: Is there a correlation between Jacob and MiB in regards to the mythical conflict between Horus and Set?

My ancient mythology is a tad bit rusty, but there's definitely more at work here than meets the eye. I can't wait to see how this all works out!

Burninate88
02-03-2010, 01:50 PM
Something else to think about. There's no evidence to support that the island is at the bottom of the ocean because a h-bomb detonated. I refuse to believe that a bomb as relatively weak (compared to what we have today) could have done such a thing. Even if it could, it wouldn't have sunk so perfectly. I think whenever the island is traveling (through time, I presume), it is underwater, which is what we see happen to it the first time it jumps and 'disappears'. We have to remember that this isn't the first time we've seen the island physically change location. When the island 'vanished,' it's perfectly reasonable to assume it was just going underwater, like it is in 2004 version currently. This could also explain why after a big jump, it seems to be raining or wet? Just some thoughts.

tzakiel
02-03-2010, 01:51 PM
Guys, please

"Nice to see you out of those chains" refers to Jacob's control over Richard. Not physical chains.

Little_Kang
02-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Something else to think about. There's no evidence to support that the island is at the bottom of the ocean because a h-bomb detonated. I refuse to believe that a bomb as relatively weak (compared to what we have today) could have done such a thing. Even if it could, it wouldn't have sunk so perfectly. I think whenever the island is traveling (through time, I presume), it is underwater, which is what we see happen to it the first time it jumps and 'disappears'. We have to remember that this isn't the first time we've seen the island physically change location. When the island 'vanished,' it's perfectly reasonable to assume it was just going underwater, like it is in 2004 version currently. This could also explain why after a big jump, it seems to be raining or wet? Just some thoughts.

But the H-bomb was detonated in 1977, so 30 years could have detoriated the island and depending on the relativity of where it was detonated on the Island could have caused a shockwave to come back as a tidal wave to cover the island.

magnushanso
02-03-2010, 01:54 PM
My thought is that the bomb did go off, so jacob/richard could never visit all of the losties in their childhood's/random moments
So naturally all of the courses of their lives have changed and their worlds are entirely different - some still ending up on the same plane and some not (shannon, walt, michael etc)

I wonder if this means Claire will give aaron up for adoption? does this mean rose will still be ill? is sawyer going to try and scam hurley out of his lottery money?

Jakob_from_Sweden
02-03-2010, 02:00 PM
Guys, please

"Nice to see you out of those chains" refers to Jacob's control over Richard. Not physical chains.


Word:). Richard at one point said that he find it weird that Locke (Flocke) was resurrected. Flocke replied that "I never asked how you seem to never age". Richard replied: "I'm this way because Jacob made me this way"

or something like that. don't remember the exact words. the point is;

Jacob made Richard never age and presumably pointed him out as an advisor to the leader of the others (Widmore/Eloise/Ben) and also as a mediator/spokesman on jacobs behalf to the others. now when jacob is dead he is free from that role.

the question is; will Richard now start to age?

Little_Kang
02-03-2010, 02:00 PM
My thought is that the bomb did go off, so jacob/richard could never visit all of the losties in their childhood's/random moments
So naturally all of the courses of their lives have changed and their worlds are entirely different - some still ending up on the same plane and some not (shannon, walt, michael etc)

I wonder if this means Claire will give aaron up for adoption? does this mean rose will still be ill? is sawyer going to try and scam hurley out of his lottery money?

I think Sawyer was changed just as Hurley was. Hurley wasn't so worried and thought himself to be the luckiest man alive. I think Sawyer had changed too when he wasn't just looking out for himself by telling Hurley that and helping Kate avoid security

Little_Kang
02-03-2010, 02:01 PM
Word:). Richard at one point said that he find it weird that Locke (Flocke) was resurrected. Flocke replied that "I never asked how you seem to never age". Richard replied: "I'm this way because Jacob made me this way"

or something like that. don't remember the exact words. the point is;

Jacob made Richard never age and presumably pointed him out as an advisor to the leader of the others (Widmore/Eloise/Ben) and also as a mediator/spokesman on jacobs behalf to the others. now when jacob is dead he is free from that role.

the question is; will Richard now start to age?

My christanity is a little off but wasn't someone punished by having endless life. Maybe Richard's agelessness what punishment for wronging Jacob some way

Prionace
02-03-2010, 02:05 PM
My guess is that is the bomb went off in 77 certain events since then are altered too, so it is normal that the passengers in flight 815 are diferent and have diferent backgrounds now. For example, if the bomb worked, the hatch was never build, and Desmond never had to stay there, so he could be in plane... It's kind like a "butterfly effect" we think that just one thing should be different, but in fact many other things could be different on the account of that single event. And i think this is what we'll be seeing in season 6...

lostinri
02-03-2010, 02:06 PM
I thought of the Charlie similarity when Jack was working on Sayid-I'm surprised Kate didnt see it. Do u think it's possible that when young Ben was taken 2 the temple,he also became Jacob? that's why he couldnt see Jacob in the cabin. of course, that only happened in the Sayid timeline after he went back 2 the 70's. what a tangled web.

dgb100
02-03-2010, 02:14 PM
If the bomb went off why the hell is anyone still alive that was in the immediate area? Even a small atomic weapon is an atomic weapon and would utterly devistate the area around the detonation. Obviously there is no way Juliet wouldn't be a pile of ash, if even that. Someone or something must have intervened at the moment of the flash. Although something exploded since Kate (who I now want to die, can't stand her) ended up half deaf in a tree.

Not sure what the underwater Dahrmaville is about. Global Warming is a real bitch in AR2?

Where is Farraday when we need him?


My guess is that is the bomb went off in 77 certain events since then are altered too, so it is normal that the passengers in flight 815 are diferent and have diferent backgrounds now. For example, if the bomb worked, the hatch was never build, and Desmond never had to stay there, so he could be in plane... It's kind like a "butterfly effect" we think that just one thing should be different, but in fact many other things could be different on the account of that single event. And i think this is what we'll be seeing in season 6...

tzakiel
02-03-2010, 02:21 PM
Also, charlie probably didn't swallow the heroin as a method of suicide, he was probably trying to hide it or get it past the customs. When he said "I was supposed to die" that's probably either depression or AR weirdness kicking in.

Burninate88
02-03-2010, 02:22 PM
My thought is that the bomb did go off, so jacob/richard could never visit all of the losties in their childhood's/random moments

If this is the case, then Locke would have died from the fall.

Ruthie
02-03-2010, 02:22 PM
My christanity is a little off but wasn't someone punished by having endless life.

Not exactly. Eternity (endless life as you put it) is in God's plan, but some are rewarded with eternity in God's presence and ongoing fellowship with Him while others are punished with eternal separation from God and all that He represents.

caldwell.the.great
02-03-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm going to toss in a few things and hope some other Losties can help me out.

First, let me say I wasn't as impressed by these first two episodes as others were. I really thought it fell a little flat, partly because of the "(s)he's dead, no alive, no dead!" bit with Juliet and Sayid, and partly because I was so convinced that Locke couldn't possibly be the smoke monster. This shape shifting business seems a little cheap to me. But who knows, perhaps it'll all work out and I'll be super impressed.

That said, here goes:

1) I think Christian has a ton to do with what's going on, but not necessarily in the AR. Christian is the one that told Sun and Lapidus to seek out Locke for help, and given Christian's semi-supernatural status on the island, one has to assume he knows a little bit about what's going on with Locke, the MIB, and the smoke monster. So, just who in the hell is Christian and why does he know so much about the island?

2) We know that the smoke monster is NOT INHABITING JOHN LOCKE'S BODY. There are currently three John Lockes, one of which is the smoke monster in his form. The first one is alive in the AR, with Jack offering to help him ("nothing's irreversible"). The second one is dead on the island. The third just looks like Locke. I think we can safely infer from this that the smoke monster is a shape shifter and not a body-inhabiting demon or whatever.

3) If that's the case, we know that Christian's body isn't inhabited. He's either not Christian or he's a bit more informed about the island than we know. Can Jacob shape shift? Is there any indication of this in past episodes? And what motivations can we estimate concerning Claire's involvement with Christian on the island?

4) Why was Ben capable of controlling the smoke monster in previous episodes? Seems like the smoke monster is more than a security device, and it is definitely sentient. Why would it follow Ben's orders if its enemy was Jacob and the others?

5) Which makes me wonder what FLocke meant when he said, "I'm very disappointed in all of you."

6) Something tells me this isn't a story about good and evil. For awhile Locke was serving the purpose of Jacob, or at least he seemed to be doing that. Richard accepted him, everyone told him how special he was. There must have been something more to that than him turning up dead. Wasn't it Christian, not Jacob, who told him he had to die? And if the smoke monster can shape shift, why hasn't it carried out a similar plot sooner? Whatever loophole the MIB found, it doesn't seem to me that it's a loophole about time.

7) Has anyone been reminded of the backgammon game from season 1? The goal is to get every one of your pieces off the board. Flocke says he wants to go home. Interesting.

8) Which makes me wonder about the nature of Jacob and MIB's disagreement. What exactly does Jacob think MIB is wrong about?

9) Has the hydrogen bomb always exploded in 1977? This is a big one. The same question can be asked in a different way: has there always been an alternate reality like the one we saw in Ep. 1 and 2? That is, has there always been an AR in which Hugo is the luckiest man alive, in which Rose isn't afraid of flying, and in which Desmond mysteriously appears on the same flight as Jack? Previously we've only moved through different times, presumably within the same universe. But now we're moving through alternate universes. Does Jacob know about this? And did the hydrogen bomb go off in both universes? We can't really know if it went off in the past and the DHARMA group built the Swan anyways, can we. Which leaves us in a curious position.

10) Previously I thought that Jacob hopped through time. This is how he appears to everyone off island. Now I'm wondering if he doesn't hop through universes. I'm beginning to suspect that the island is a UFO. And I'm beginning to suspect that Jacob and MIB are aliens. I really hope not, but there's some evidence for that...........

lostinri
02-03-2010, 02:32 PM
I also think the first time Locke sees the Smoke Monster is incredibly significant because it looks beautiful to him. Why does it look so beautiful to him and no one else? Does the Smoke Monster/MiB see how Locke will help him in the future? I at least think MiB sees something lonely/empty within Locke and knows Locke will fit the perfect role for him to finally find his loophole.

Anyway, those are my thoughts! Ahh, can't wait until next week!! :)

I've been going back 2 old episodes and seeing everything Locke says in a different way since he was resurrected. Maybe he was actually changed during that FIRST meeting with the smoke monster and the "real" John Locke has been gone since then.

caldwell.the.great
02-03-2010, 02:40 PM
I've been going back 2 old episodes and seeing everything Locke says in a different way since he was resurrected. Maybe he was actually changed during that FIRST meeting with the smoke monster and the "real" John Locke has been gone since then.

I don't think that's possible. Flocke acknowledged to Ben what Locke's thoughts were as he died. How Flocke knew that is beyond me, however. They're obviously not the same person, not even one spirit inhabiting the same body (Locke's dead on the beach). It's a confusing situation for sure.

lostinri
02-03-2010, 02:43 PM
quote miss tina....1. juliets last words about meeting for coffee sometime reminded me of the scene last season with Charlette and Faraday right before she died when she was all out of it and talking about how she wasn't allowed to have chocolate before dinner or something...like mentally they are in another time. Dont know how relevant it is but I definitely don't feel like we are done with Juliet.



I remember feeling weird about the scene frm last season where Rose asked Juliet if she wanted some tea. It seemed like there was some significance. Juliet said "maybe some other time".

vancurenw
02-03-2010, 02:57 PM
So if 815 never crashed, Juliette would still be on the island in 2007, after Jacob was killed. She is the only person out of the group who was at the Swan station when the bomb detonated who should be on the island in the AR. Maybe she somehow knew that another version of herself was there? That would explain how she knew "it worked" (whatever that means, exactly).

Prionace
02-03-2010, 03:05 PM
She might not be in the island in the AR, if the bomb went off in 1977 and the island collapsed in the sea for example she would never go there.

CaputInterNubila
02-03-2010, 03:07 PM
So if 815 never crashed, Juliette would still be on the island in 2007, after Jacob was killed. She is the only person out of the group who was at the Swan station when the bomb detonated who should be on the island in the AR. Maybe she somehow knew that another version of herself was there? That would explain how she knew "it worked" (whatever that means, exactly).

Good point about how Juliet is different than the others in that group. I had not thought of that. To me it would make sense that they end up in the same future, no matter if they took different paths to get there. But since the island is under water when Jack looks out the window, that kind of throws a wrench in that idea!

lostinri
02-03-2010, 03:08 PM
If the "Island" timeline is 2007, then Rose & Bernard are still on the island in their "retirement" home with Vincent. Maybe this will turn out 2 be important.

GotLost?
02-03-2010, 03:16 PM
Hey everyone...I've been lurking for months, and decided to jump in...if my question has already been asked and/or answered, I apologize. And perhaps I'm way off base in my thinking....but is there any possibility that the Egyptian gods are planning on incarnating themselves into the survivors? If it's true in what someone mentioned that they saw Darlton talking about on Kimmel, that someone was perhaps inhabiting Sayid, but perhaps not Jacob...then maybe the gods are coming (hence Jacob whispering "They're coming") and are going to take on bodily form to fight in a potential war? Please, I beg...no one shoot me. =)

BobW
02-03-2010, 03:20 PM
My guess is that is the bomb went off in 77 certain events since then are altered too, so it is normal that the passengers in flight 815 are diferent and have diferent backgrounds now. For example, if the bomb worked, the hatch was never build, and Desmond never had to stay there, so he could be in plane... It's kind like a "butterfly effect" we think that just one thing should be different, but in fact many other things could be different on the account of that single event. And i think this is what we'll be seeing in season 6...

Hawking and Widmore would have been killed if the bomb sunk the island. So no Widmore, no race around the world, no meeting Jack in the stadium, no going to the island on the sailboat, so who know why Des was on the plane...

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 03:20 PM
My question is: Only the important people in the hierarchy of the Others knew the Temple existed. Ben made reference to it, as did Widmore and Eloise when they were on the island. But not everyone who is an Other knows about the Temple. Ben gives Alex a map to get to the Temple when he tells her to escape in "Meet Kevin Johnson". Karl was an another and he didn't know either. How come Cindy and the kids were able to get there with no delay? What is so special about them that they were able to get in?

Because the others are both blessed and cursed. Blessed with the healing properties of the waters and either extended or eternal life (until you're actually killed by an external force), and cursed with the fact that they can bear no children. Those two things balance each other out. But Others do die, when people kill them, and so they occasionally have to recruit more, since they can't have kids. When the plane crashed, Cindy and the kids were judged to have the right temperament to become, what would you call them, guardians of the waters? And so were recruited. Those who are not involved with the waters etc don't need to know about the Temple.

lostinri
02-03-2010, 03:28 PM
I just remember Patchy :) He kept "dying" and then showing up. Maybe he was MIB?

gmoney4815
02-03-2010, 03:31 PM
There's so much to say, but a couple of things:

-Cindy and the kids were sent to the temple by Ben, and Richard took them there. They were always just along for the ride.

-Regarding no one seeing the temple from high elevations: it was probably built at a high altitude and covered by foliage. That would explain who was transmitting with Ben via mirrors in S4. Especially since the other mirror and person were on a ridgeline at a high
elevation.

-Speaking of mirrors, whenever I see one on the show I perk up, considering the allusions to and symbols of them littered about. The mirror in the lavatory on the plane very much symbolized to me, the alternate realities. Jack looks down at his neck and "Aha!"... I think that wound may be similar to the horn with Roland Deschain at the end of "The Dark Tower" by Stephen King. "Nothing is irreversible"...

- Did'nt Miles claim when the dead speak to him, he hears their last living thought? Wasn't Sayid's last living thought about his afterlife? Maybe his gruesome thought spooked Miles? ( could be a red herring ).

Finally, I'm not forgetting that damned outrigger shooting scene. $$$ on "Bizzaro" Losties shooting at "our" (*is possessive*) Losties.

I'd love some feedback. :)

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 03:32 PM
It also may answer the question as to why the men's bullet did not hurt Flocke but Ben was able to easily stab and kill Jacob. Remember that because Sayid shot and almost killed Ben in 1977, Ben was taken to the temple to be healed. And because of this I am assuming that he then has the ability to kill Jacob. If Jacob is a part of the water, then being revived by it may give the person a part of Jacob/ his abilities like mentioned above. If this were the case, it still does not explain why Ben had so many negative things happen to him while on the island. Thoughts???

Ben is able to kill Jacob because he was leader of the Others. There are very definate rules about who can hurt who. Jacob and MiB cannot hurt each other. The only person for whom Jacob is actually mortal is whomever is leader of the Others. That's why Locke became leader as soon as Ben had reason to not trust Jacob anymore. The loophole is that the MiB was able to convince everyone that Locke was still alive after he died and so a new leader wasn't chosen, and so the "leader" position reverted back to Ben without anyone knowing, which is why he was able to go into the Temple and why he was able to kill Jacob.

Obviously, MiB was not able to hurt the Others while Jacob was alive, although he could hurt normals like Dharma and Flight 815. The question now is, who is able to hurt MiB. Especially since it seems his only forms he is able to take on the island is dead people and the smoke monster.

Oh and BTW, "home" for MiB could be the island. Jacob has cast out the actual corporal body of MiB from the island, and MiB just wants to come back. I think. Or possibly Jacob and MiB are Egyptian gods or something and he wants to go back to Mount Olympus or wherever that set of gods lived. *shrug* less clear on that part.

subzero1313
02-03-2010, 03:35 PM
idk if its been mentioned already(I'm back reading now) but Des looked familair because they met before. When Des was training for the contest, he ran into Jack when he was running upand down the stairs in the stadium

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 03:36 PM
EDIT: on re-watch, I see the village, so yes, the entire island (or at least huge chunks of it) are indeed under the ocean. I can't fathom (ha!) how an explosion would be able to do that without also leveling the houses, but maybe we'll get an explanation. Wow.
-steve

Because it wasn't a full up nuclear blast. The nuclear bomb just "offset" the electro-magnetic event. Basically the EMPs cancelled each other out and all you had left was just a huge dynamite-like explosion underground (in the shaft) which would have produced an outcome like was seen in the show. Huge chunks of the island underwater.

m4rk0
02-03-2010, 03:42 PM
Anyone else annoying by the amateurish writing for the airport scene with the lost baggage? "I lost my bag...what did you lose?" Really? Why would anyone ever ask that in a lost baggage station at the airport? There were numerous ways that could have been written better and feel more natural.

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 03:43 PM
If the bomb went off why the hell is anyone still alive that was in the immediate area? Even a small atomic weapon is an atomic weapon and would utterly devistate the area around the detonation. Obviously there is no way Juliet wouldn't be a pile of ash, if even that. Someone or something must have intervened at the moment of the flash. Although something exploded since Kate (who I now want to die, can't stand her) ended up half deaf in a tree.

Not sure what the underwater Dahrmaville is about. Global Warming is a real bitch in AR2?

Where is Farraday when we need him?

They time-jumped up to 2007 right before the bomb actually went off. They were all in the same place they were 30 years earlier, except for it seems a tree happened to grow over those 30 years right where Kate was standing.

edm9644
02-03-2010, 03:46 PM
I'm pretty sure I read over the summer that the LOST producers said that a lot of the characters would have to die. We obviously saw a lot of that in this episode.

The interesting thing I think is what Juliet said to Miles when he listened to her dead body, "It Worked." It could be that in order for them to escape the island and be rejoined with the AR we've been introduced to, they must die.

Charlie is my homeboy
02-03-2010, 03:56 PM
In my opinion, the AR isn't necessarily "alternate". I believe that the plane ride shown is the culmination of everything going on. Whatever happens in the remainder of the season all leads to that AR. Alternate because it is very different from the original flight, but not alternate because, in a manner of speaking, nothing would have ever happened on the island.

edm9644
02-03-2010, 03:57 PM
If everyone from 1977 was ported back to 2007 when Juliet detonated the bomb then one would have to assume Bernard and Rose were ported back as well. If that's the case then they didn't die in 1977 so who are the Adam and Eve skeletons they found in the caves in Season One?

heddafish
02-03-2010, 04:00 PM
This. I -really- don't see how Richard could have been a slave on the Black Rock. For one, I *really* get the feeling he's been around for longer than 150 years. For two? Richard is not African!

He could be Egyptian though, and Egypt is in Africa. We have seen that there are already Eygyptian references throughout the show.

Also I do think he was on the slave ship and was a slave as I did research on his name. I was reading the Electric Kool-Aid Acid test by Tom Wolfe and it refers to Dr. Richard Alpert and Timothy Leary. I looked up Richard Alpert and found out he was a spiritual teacher and changed his name Dam Rass, meaning "servant of God."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Dass

I don't think that the choice of name is a coincidence. Perhaps he was on the slave ship and remained a slave, if not metaphorically, throughout his time on the island.

Little_Kang
02-03-2010, 04:02 PM
Not exactly. Eternity (endless life as you put it) is in Gods' plan, but some are rewarded with eternity in God's presence and ongoing fellowship with Him while others are punished with eternal separation from God and all that He represents.

but wasn't ponious pilate(spelling) set to enternity on earth or something?

Charlie is my homeboy
02-03-2010, 04:09 PM
but wasn't ponious pilate(spelling) set to enternity on earth or something?

no, pontious pilot was the one who, after being persauded, gave the ruling to crucify Jesus. pilot is dead. jesus is the only one still alive, after raising from the dead. however, he ascended into heaven until his return.

heddafish
02-03-2010, 04:19 PM
i just posted this question in the in-show discussion (sorry mods, didn't mean to double post this)...

what are the chances that MIB took Jacob's body after he was killed to tell Hurley to bring Sayid's body to the temple?


I think that there is something about burning dead bodies that makes the smoke monster unable to take their form, so I think that Jacob was dead and speaking to Hurley like the other dead people do. A
lso why does Hurley only see people who died from the island? They have never showed him or referred to him seeing other dead people like his grandfather.

Smoke Monster may have been,
Christian, Eko, Boone, Locke, possibly Harper,possibly Claire, Libby and Charlie all died and then their bodies remained intact on the island. Why else would there be an emphasis on burning the dead?
But then why would the Flocke/Jacob's nemesis burn Jacob's body?

This may also tie to Miles and his inability to speak to burned dead, but I don't have a connection yet.

Dharma Ranch Dressing
02-03-2010, 04:34 PM
I haven't seen anyone ask this yet, but what did Bram pick up from the ground when Flocke disappeared? It looked like a claw or talon, or maybe a thorn. Any ideas?

LOSTFTW7
02-03-2010, 04:36 PM
I haven't seen anyone ask this yet, but what did Bram pick up from the ground when Flocke disappeared? It looked like a claw or talon, or maybe a thorn. Any ideas?

it was a bullet that was shot at Flocke, but it was mangled from hitting him, or going through him and hitting the wall.

Charlie is my homeboy
02-03-2010, 04:41 PM
Smoke Monster may have been,
Christian, Eko, Boone, Locke, possibly Harper,possibly Claire, Libby and Charlie all died and then their bodies remained intact on the island. Why else would there be an emphasis on burning the dead?
But then why would the Flocke/Jacob's nemesis burn Jacob's body?


I believe the smoke monster was Christian, at least when Christian appears in Jacobs cabin. Christian is the one who motivates Locke to move the island, which in turn leads to Locke's eventual death. Also, note that some of the ash surrounding the house was removed thus allowing MIB/Smokey to pass through.

I believe he was also Charlie. When Charlie visits Hurley in the mental institute, one of the other patients say something like(I don't know the exact dialouge)...

Patient: "Your in trouble now."
Hurley: "Yea, why is that?"
Patient: "You're being watched." and then points to Charlie. Therefore Charlie, at that moment, was a physical being.

When Sayid enters Hurley's room and Hurley is playing chess with Eko, Sayid can't see Eko. Therefore, I assume anyway, Eko only appeard to Hurley as part of Hurley's "gift" and not by MIB.

Other than Locke, I can't think of MIB possibly being any other person on the island. Maybe someone else could??? Although, I do believe he appears to Eko as his brother Yemi right before Eko dies.

spacedaisy42
02-03-2010, 04:43 PM
Anyway, something about the notion of souls seems particularly poignant. Is the chasm between AR and the island related to their souls....AR is depicting their soul, thus Boone and Charlie are there...???

I like this thought. Not that the AR is an afterlife, but that there is some playing out of the original universe in the AR. Reminiscent of The Great Divorce picture of an afterlife. It's just really interesting.

Ok, Here are some of my thoughts on topics that are being debated here.

1. Charlie choking. I think we would do well to remember that sometimes there is a smaller reason storyline wise that may be the cause of some things. Kate pick pocketed Jack's pen. This was a part of her escape story, which was a fairly large part of the episode. In order to explain how she gets a pen, they needed to let you know she took it from Jack. Charlie choking on the drugs instead of overdosing on them.

2. I agree with the poster who pointed out that in order to have a Christian theme there would have to be a Christ-figure. LOST is not a Christian show, but it draws from a lot of Jewish imagery found in the Old Testament, but this does not make it Christian for obvious reasons. It also draws from a lot of other religious symbols and cultures. But I think for ease of speaking sometimes people say God/good vs. Evil/Satan. It is not absolutely appropriate for the context, but perhaps we should not get quite so hung up on it because I think most people mean it in a more generic sense than specifically Christian. Just my two cents.

3. The "chains" comment. Anyone thought about the possibility he might not be referring to Richard being in chains, but rather himself? So he might be saying, "Nice to see you Richard, now that I am out of my chains." Just another possibility to consider, I'm not sure what the real meaning is, but we will probably get a better idea as we go along this season.

4. I don't agree with all this talk about Jacob imprisoning his nemesis on the island or as the smoke monster or whatever. I think it seems pretty obvious that whatever rules these two are playing by are imposed upon them by something or someone outside of them. Otherwise Jacob's nemesis could not defeat him because he's always playing by Jacob's rules on Jacob's playing field. I believe that the "They're coming" statement at the end of season 5 referred to the outside forces that impose the rules.

5. Juliet's last words reminded me very much of Charlotte's incoherent thoughts. It really does look as though she got a glimpse of the other reality, I would assume this is because her death occurred right at the moment of the split between the realities, but that is just a thought. I am sure her going dutch for coffee comment will come back. Just like the chocolate comment. I know this is not a new thought, just weighing in on the conversation. "It worked." seems to obviously refer to their attempt to change things. But it doesn't make sense in this reality.

6. Aliens. I will be extremely disappointed if Jacob's nemesis (and by extension, Jacob) are from another planet or out of space. The home comment was really interesting though. Perhaps both Jacob and his Nemesis were put on this island because of their constant conflict, with rules imposed by outside sources to keep them in check. Just throwing out some thoughts.

7. Miles' strange look on his face. I feel pretty sure this was intended to foreshadow either simply Sayid's non-death or some apparent possession of Sayid by Jacob. As soon as it happened the group I watched with postulated that Sayid must not really be dead, and I hold to that.


Sorry I have not read the whole thread, but am responding to what I read in the first 10 pages or so. There, it was put forth the theory that Lost is about a battle between good (Jacob) and evil (MiB). That is not the case. I believe that the current producers of the show (since JJ is not involved anymore, right) are fans of an old sci-fi show called Babylon 5. That show was about two ancient powerful alien races who were engaged in a battle in between not good and evil (which is Star Wars) but in between Order and Chaos. These two races had called a truce and had agreed to not directly attack each other, but were allowed to affect the lives of the younger races (like humans), which eventually led to them breaking the truce and going to war again. I will not tell you how it ended in case I am right. But I see many similarities in Lost right now, and I believe that Lost is actually a battle between faith/destiny (Jacob) and logic/free will (MiB). Neither is good nor evil. They had agreed to a truce with each other and could not attack each other directly. However the MiB found a loophole in that Locke was dead, but Richard did not know it and didn't appont a new leader, and so Ben (who was leader again by virtue of Locke dying) was allowed into the statue and was able to kill Jacob, when MiB couldn't touch him. And MiB is not evil, just using people like pawns in a game (much like Jacob is) which explains why some people were spared by the black smoke monster.

I agree with this line of thinking to an extent. It seems fairly straightforward that while one may not be good and one evil, one does appear much more benevolent and one seems more malevolent. This doesn't necessarily equal good and evil, but it does make us the viewers want to side with one rather than the other. Regarding this topic I liked this post:


I noticed Miles' reaction too. I was under the impression that either he was
a)puzzled that he wasn't hearing anything (ie Sayid wasnt really dead) or b)he was hearing something crazy going on in Sayid's head (maybe Sayid's afterlife thoughts or MAYBE thoughts that weren't actually Sayid's.)


haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this already has been suggested by someone; I do not think that there really is an "alternate reality". I see them as "what-if"-flashes, a new sort of narrative tool to tell an alternate story as what would have happened if the plane did not crash. When jughead went off they were "teleported" forward through time- but there were no "reset" as faraday suggested.

The only hole in this theory as I see it is that the island was supposedly destroyed and sunk to the bottom of the sea ...:confused:

I don't like this one and hope the producers are not going this way. The reason is that it would be one in the same as Hurley waking up in Santa Rosa and it was all a dream. We have invested in these two realities as somehow both real. If one turns out to be some sort of dreamlike occurrence or what have you, I will feel betrayed by Darlton. They have repeatedly promised not to do this to us.

It would seem that even though Jacob's nemesis thinks he has outwitted Jacob, he must be wrong since Jacob laid the plans for Hurley taking the guitar case to the temple before he died. I find it very interesting that apparently Sayid is important still. I honestly thought they had played his story out as far as it had to go and he was going to die. Glad to see I was wrong!

My guess about this season is that it will be about restoring balance. There is imbalance when you only have one side (The Nemesis), so I think the nothing is irreversible idea will apply to the current state of imbalance. Either both sides take out or Jacob being restored. I don't think one side is going to win over the other because they seem to represent faith/free will. I believe there is a place for both, and I don't see LOST taking one side on the division.

I have to be honest that I was not overly impressed with this premiere. Probably because I am not at all keen on alternate realities. They just get so messy.

One thing that struck me was the resemblance to the movie Sliding Doors. Two alternate realities playing out at the same time. I think we may see both realities so we can learn the end of both options. I suspect that as far as the result of the conflict between Jacob and his Nemesis they will both be the same, but the difference will be the outcome of our Losties' lives. The other option I think might be possible is we will see one of the two realities reversed yet again and thus erased. Probably the one we least expect.

spacedaisy42
02-03-2010, 04:47 PM
but wasn't ponious pilate(spelling) set to enternity on earth or something?

There is nothing in Christianity that is like this. There is greek or roman mythology that involves eternity performing some task or other. I can't speak as absolutely about what that is though because I have not studied a lot of mythology.

LockeBox
02-03-2010, 04:48 PM
Does it bother anyone that the VW Dharma van conveniently transported forward in time with the 1977 group so that they could use it to pull the wreckage off of the swan station and to drive to the Temple? I know that Sayid was in the van and thus "touching" it at the time, but to me it just seemed unnecessary and somewhat inconsistent with the time travel aspects.

This also bothered me a season or two ago when Sawyer, Juliet et al transported through time while in the longboat and the boat traveled with them.

Dharma Ranch Dressing
02-03-2010, 04:50 PM
it was a bullet that was shot at Flocke, but it was mangled from hitting him, or going through him and hitting the wall.

Ah...I guess I should have thought about that. Good pickup. Thanks.

LOSTFTW7
02-03-2010, 04:52 PM
Ah...I guess I should have thought about that. Good pickup. Thanks.

No problem

tzakiel
02-03-2010, 05:04 PM
-Speaking of mirrors, whenever I see one on the show I perk up, considering the allusions to and symbols of them littered about. The mirror in the lavatory on the plane very much symbolized to me, the alternate realities. Jack looks down at his neck and "Aha!"... I think that wound may be similar to the horn with Roland Deschain at the end of "The Dark Tower" by Stephen King. "Nothing is irreversible"...

This, combined with Jacob's "it only ends once, everything else is just progress" makes me believe there is some sort of cycle going on until someone (Jack? Locke?) "gets it right" just like Roland in the dark tower. In addition, the producers are big fans of the dark tower series and have admitted its influence on them to some degree.

phenom
02-03-2010, 05:10 PM
I don't necessarily think the AR is "alternate", I mean I definitely see the possibility, but I really think that some sort of "course correction" will take place, as it has in the past.

These "Flash Sideways" or whatever, could possibly showing two different times, in the same reality. Perhaps everything was supposed to happen as it did, and the people in this new AR, are in 2004, while there original selves are in 2007. Maybe they'll still lead up to the same place?

I would probably prefer this personally over having just 2 separate timelines/universes. Though, I'm not really sure how exactly it'd work out.

(On a completely different side note, does the way Ben and Sayid being saved via the Temple hold some sort of significance?)

electrotek
02-03-2010, 05:19 PM
You all missed the most important part:

There's a Dharma logo on the tail of the shark underwater .... go and check it, and mull over that one!

Other things I noticed:

1. They weren't particularly in a hurry to look after Sayid! Juliette down the well got all the attention and poor ol Sayid got left for an eternity.

2. Sayid's scars seemed to disappear after his excursion in the pool - perhaps this was a continuity error, but by the time he 'pops back to life' he's properly dressed and fit as a fiddle.

dontevertellmewhaticantdo
02-03-2010, 05:23 PM
Locke was lying, because he was ashamed of not being able to go on the walkabout.

Shannon was not on the plane because in this AR, Boone doesn't have a hang-up over Shannon, so he didn't feel compelled to save her.

Desmond either just spent the last few minutes of the flight in the bathroom, or he's doing some weird time/space/reality traveling.

Hello.... Desmond was never on the original flight... He was down on the island forgetting to push the button... WHY IS HE ON THE PLANE?

m8o
02-03-2010, 05:28 PM
BTW, what's with the Stargate next to the foot underwater?
:p

Probably the remnant of the handle of the ankh. ...but, that would imply when the island went down, the statue was still up. Have no idea what that means and I care not to speculate; it's all a creation of tptb and I'm happy to sit back @ this point and let them spoon-feed it to me this season. ...just random thoughts. ;)

Pnkn
02-03-2010, 05:30 PM
All the main Losties seemed to be speaking really fast. No one asked any questions or looked puzzled. Getting the shiny chain to unearth Juliet went like a well polished drill. Marching across the temple courtyard seemed like an ordinary stroll. Sawyer was being emotionally reflexive not thoughtful. Jack was failing. Jin spoke perfect English.
It seemed to me that the whole show was as if no one had played their roles and were marching through the script as fast as possible in order for as much as possible to happen.

Pnkn

all JACKed up
02-03-2010, 05:30 PM
I think it safe to Assume that Richard was a slave
on the black rock.

I would think it is unsafe to assume anything in LOST. Black rock being a slave ship and Richard Alpert working his way to the top after being a slave on a transport ship seems very unlikely.


Also did Sandy say "They were with me when the plane crashed the first time?" Does that imply Temple others are aware of multiple time lines?

This is messed up. Because obviously the "first" plane crash never happened ; so why were Sandy and the kids still on the island??? They obviously have converted into real "others" and are safe from the "real world" and I would have to agree that they are aware of the two realities


What do you think about this:

When Juliette was saying her dying words, she asked if Sawyer would like some tea. She was actually in between the two planes of existence as she was dying and was asking her sister or someone else for tea in the other reality. This is why she said it worked. She realized that the alternate reality was created.

I think she was talking to Sawyer but in the "real world" because he says "Juliet its me," and she says "Yes, James." So she was, like Charlotte, in between places and seeing that the two of them will still meet, because you can't change the future. What happened will always happen. dun dun dun.



Jack met Desmond off the island. Remember the running up and down the stairs in the stadium? That's why he remembers him on the plane.

The look Jack gave Des was not a "I know you from earth" look, it was a "I think I've seen you before in a dream or something..." kind of look. I think that part of these people know whats going on but they feel like its all a dream



My first prediction ever on LP- Sawyer and Juliet will meet in the AR. She will suggest they go get coffee. "We'll go dutch".

She glimpsed the AR and knew the bomb worked.

AGREED :D


Guys, please

"Nice to see you out of those chains" refers to Jacob's control over Richard. Not physical chains.

I like this one. Except, Jacob isn't the type of guy to force anyone against their will to do anything.. so the metaphorical chains may be a stretch



I remember feeling weird about the scene frm last season where Rose asked Juliet if she wanted some tea. It seemed like there was some significance. Juliet said "maybe some other time".

Weew! We better not be done with Juliet! :) :)




And lastly, MIB said that Locke was the only one who wanted to stay on the island....Rose wanted to stay also..

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 05:32 PM
they showed you that shark when sawyer and michael were on the wrecked raft. its from hydra island, the others kept jack in a shark tank

all JACKed up
02-03-2010, 05:33 PM
One last thought!!

Okay so Juliet was not part of the original flight 815, thats fine. She should still technically not have been on the island. The only ones that make sense with still being there are the o6, because they took the Ajira flight..(which we'll find out why they take this flight later on, because you can't change the future)

Flight 815 technically never crashed so even Sawyer shouldn't have been there. If the hydrogen bomb ruined everything, Dharma included, Ben would never have become power leader and never would have brought Juliet to the island, etc...

F this is confusing.

Yoseppi12
02-03-2010, 05:36 PM
Where does Widmore fit into this season now that it seems more like Jacob and friends Vs Smokey? It looks like there is really no place for him...

And second...

Was it me or did Jack seem like he noticed everyone a little bit, almost like this Alternate reality of being on the plane and having it land like he felt like he already been through it...

Rose telling him he can let go now, the way he looked at Desmond...

Also there better be something to do with this alternate reality or whatever because it just confusing....

I have counted there is like 5 or 6 different timelines for this show, individual's flashbacks, flash forwards, 1970's dharma time, 2004 time, then various people jumping through different times, now alternate time (flash sideways) its so many stories crazy to try and see how they all will unfold.

m8o
02-03-2010, 05:41 PM
Ok, I will immediately contradict what I just posted above, with speculation. But not about the subject above. This is likely to get 'Lost' in the flood of posts and ideas, but...

Is anyone else of like thinking as me after seeing our 'alt reality' that NEITHER the characters in that 'alt reality', nor the Losties we've come to know since the Pilot episode on, are "themselves"? That there's been a split in reality with a bias towards good karma in the alt, and a bias toward bad karma in the reality we've seen the 1st 4 seasons, which must be corrected.

All seemed a little too "rosey" in the alt reality. And let's admit, all's quite "grim" in the reality we've seen in the 1st 4 seasons. Perhaps the need is these two realities, or characters of the realities, need to merge for everything to be 'right' in the world?

DriveshaftRoadie
02-03-2010, 05:41 PM
One last thought!!

Okay so Juliet was not part of the original flight 815, thats fine. She should still technically not have been on the island. The only ones that make sense with still being there are the o6, because they took the Ajira flight..(which we'll find out why they take this flight later on, because you can't change the future)

Flight 815 technically never crashed so even Sawyer shouldn't have been there. If the hydrogen bomb ruined everything, Dharma included, Ben would never have become power leader and never would have brought Juliet to the island, etc...

F this is confusing.

It's not confusing if there are two realities: one where the bomb did nothing (on-island events) and one where the bomb sunk the island (plane landing in LA events).

Sox Girl
02-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Some thoughts:

How can MIB/ Smokey be destroyed/ killed? So far I can recall three things that seem to contain him/ it. The circle of ash can keep him in or out. The electrically charged sonic fence also kept him out. And third, we have seen or guessed that he does not like water. Remember when Ben had to pull the plug out of the drain under Otherton in order to release Smokey? Maybe he is susceptible to drowning. In that case, if the island does get submerged, or even the portion he is on at the time, he would be vulnerable.

It also makes me wonder what is the "home" he is yearning for. How about fire (hell), the opposite of water? MIB is a manifestation of Lucifer after all.)

Regarding the alt reality: maybe this is a dual universe. Think of the 1977 Losties existing on the island at the same time another form of themselves was already alive in the real world, or maybe not yet born. That other being could continue to grow (or be born) in a universe where things are a little bit different as a result of the Incident. Our Losties are now back in 2007 on the island, but the 2004 form of their other self is also real. I think maybe at the end of the show, all the island folks will either be killed or will be merged with their off-island self.

It's interesting to think of Christian's body's disappearance in the ALT (I'll keep calling it that). I can't quite work it out but I think there is something very significant about this. I doubt the body will ever be found in the ALT. It may have something to do with the fact he is still animate on the island in his ghostly form.

Rose and Bernard must have flashed forwardd to 2007 again, and I think we will see them at some point.

The bodies in the cave - maybe Widmore and Hawking, after the events of the Incident shift things around back in 1977.

There is a lot to think about, that's for sure.

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 05:46 PM
juliet wouldnt be on the island in the AR because it sank before ben could bring her there

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 05:49 PM
the bomb changed one of the numbers, thats why hurly is lucky

Prezmek
02-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Nice to see Claire again - not hanging with dead for a change heh?

Yoseppi12
02-03-2010, 06:01 PM
Why is Hurley the chosen one...like llana and bram? Jacob met with everyone but his crew consisting of bram and llana were the only ones he talked talked to. Then hurley, whats so special about hurley?

And if there is no way to bring locke back to the island, real locke, not 2.0 locke or flocke or smokey or whatever you want to call him, I will be disappointed. I wish somehow Locke could go kill flocke! lol probably wont happen but a question ive been asking myself is why did smokey not kill locke so many times when he had the chance before?

Did he have this plan of using his dead body from long ago?

Could he not kill him because of locke's attachment to the island? (ben tried to kill locke when he shot him but locke was fine so could he not die on the island?)

Locke was such an important character in my mind, the closest thing to Jacob (man of faith believing that things can change) and now we officially know he's dead except in this alternate reality? we need something to come of this alternate reality but I feel like locke from the alternate reality has lost 5 seasons of knowledge from being on the island that if anything comes from him other then playing smokey that it wont make much sense?

I probably rambled crazy right there but when all the ads say "your questions will be answered" I think I picked up like 20 more questions and only got like 5 old ones answered.

dontevertellmewhaticantdo
02-03-2010, 06:03 PM
Any significance to jack's neck bleeding in the airplane bathroom?

Yoseppi12
02-03-2010, 06:03 PM
and to go with what i said above...

obviously i didnt expect to get all the answers in the priemiere i just idk it was so much to take in at once...especially episode 2 that was just like new thing after new thing after new thing...

mljs54
02-03-2010, 06:09 PM
A couple initial thoughts (apologies if some of these were already mentioned):

1. Character appearances: I believe Jack looked different solely for the purpose of him needing to keep the long hair to stay with his character appearance since S5. Charlie had short hair because Lost was shooting same time as FlashForward, and his character on that show has short hair.

2. Desmond: After the episode aired, I was talking to one of my buddies yesterday who’s a huge Star Trek and he made a interesting point. What if Desmond’s purpose in S6 is similar to Captain Picard’s at the finale of The Next Generation. He was able to travel through different time periods/dimensions to bring everyone together in each one for a common goal. Far out theory but still interesting since Lost creators are big sci-fi fans.

3. Sayid: When the Japanese guy says that “they’ll be in a lot of trouble” if Sayid dies, maybe this is a warning from Jacob that MIB will be able to inhabit his body if he is not saved in the temple, much like MIB was able to do when Locke died – AND since Sayid will be in the temple while attempted to be saved, MIB will be able to get through their defenses/wards/etc when he dies since Sayid is already in the spring room. At this point I believe that all of the apparitions on the island were MIB (e.g. Christian manipulating Ben to turn the wheel to so he can set the survivor’s return in motion to bring about dead Locke onto the island in the first place).

4. “Too obvious to be true:” a) MIB’s reference to Richard being in chains and b) MIB’s reference to “home” being extratterstial; – fans have speculated this all along and I think it’s too convenient this is the case for both. As others have mentioned, I think chains is a metaphor in this case. Leaning towards servitude to Jacob but who knows.

5. Charles/Penelope: since Charles was originally banned from the island “after” the explosion took place, he dies and Penelope is never born in the alt. timeline and that is why Desmond is on the plane and not racing out at sea.

- Cheers

myfourletterlie
02-03-2010, 06:14 PM
do you think it would have made a difference if they brought juliet to the temple too?

It wouldn't have made a difference, I don't think, because Juliet was already dead and too far gone to be saved.


It was good seeing Boone and Charlie and even the kids from the plane again.
Richard seems to know a lot about Smokey, or whoever.

It was mean of them tricking me and Sawyer into hoping that Juliet would live and just have her die. :(

funkymonkey4710
02-03-2010, 06:24 PM
I am sorry but I am so confused, I have been creeping on this message board for awhile now and I have no idea how everyone is coming up with the solution that MIB's home is extraterrestrial. If I remember right he hinted at NOTHING of it being off of Earth so I think people just jumping to that conclusion is a little ridiculous.

Charlie is my homeboy
02-03-2010, 06:35 PM
3. The "chains" comment. Anyone thought about the possibility he might not be referring to Richard being in chains, but rather himself? So he might be saying, "Nice to see you Richard, now that I am out of my chains." Just another possibility to consider, I'm not sure what the real meaning is, but we will probably get a better idea as we go along this season.


I am intrigued by this!! This could very well be. It could be a metaphor for MIB reffering to him being in chains while Jacob was alive. MIB couldn't do certain things aka he was "in chains".

Pnkn
02-03-2010, 06:35 PM
I too think that Flocke and Locke became intimate when Locke saw the beauty smoke monster. Plain old John Locke does not know that from then on he is not the only one using his body. Ben could only kill plain old Locke but for some reason not the additional inhabiter of Locke's body. I'd want to go look for any signs that smokey was in and around Locke when Ben killed him. (as in the smoke detector going off to lure Jack to see his father in the hospital). I guess this means that I also have no problem with people being inhabited by demons, which works to maintain any Christian references.

Pnkn

jrwhiting06
02-03-2010, 06:35 PM
Searched the forums, couldn't find this, and it kinda relates to mljs54 anyway....

When we first see Jack and co. on the plane in the opening scene, they all have similar hair to when we last left them. At first, I agreed that maybe it was just a production thing, easier to keep continuity and just say "in this timeline they had different hair," etc.

But then Jack goes to the bathroom and notices the blood on his neck, and looks a little confused. Did anyone else take that as even though their for their MINDS this was pre-815 crash, but for their BODIES it was post-1970's DHARMA events of S5?

scott_burke
02-03-2010, 06:35 PM
Holy crap, we still don't know who got shot on the canoe. Any ideas?

Pkbab5
02-03-2010, 06:38 PM
Just occured to me. Yes, Jacob is now in Sayid's body. That's what was on the sheet of paper. That's whey they'd be in "big trouble" if they didn't bring him to the water. That's why they said "you're friend is dead" like they knew it was going to happen after Sayid was pulled out of the water. That's why they held Jack back at gunpoint when they were drowning Sayid. They KNEW they were killing him, but they HAD to. That's why the Others took off to go make tea and cakes leaving Sayid's body sitting out after he died. They were just waiting is all. Makes the whole scene make sense.

funkymonkey4710
02-03-2010, 06:42 PM
Was anyone else intrigued that the Temple Others had a hippie vibe coming from them, also that dude with glasses kind of looked like a Degroot.

Charlie is my homeboy
02-03-2010, 06:46 PM
Just occured to me. Yes, Jacob is now in Sayid's body. That's what was on the sheet of paper. That's whey they'd be in "big trouble" if they didn't bring him to the water. That's why they said "you're friend is dead" like they knew it was going to happen after Sayid was pulled out of the water. That's why they held Jack back at gunpoint when they were drowning Sayid. They KNEW they were killing him, but they HAD to. That's why the Others took off to go make tea and cakes leaving Sayid's body sitting out after he died. They were just waiting is all. Makes the whole scene make sense.

I thought the same thing at one point too. However, someone mentioned... when MIB takes over Locke's body, Locke's dead body remains and MIB is in a "new" body. Thats why there is a Locke inside with Ben and Jacob and a Locke outside dead on the ground.

If the same principles apply here, there would be two bodies of Sayid. One dead, one inhabited by Jacob.

Someone else mentioned, Sayid could very well have been "resurrected" as Ben was as a kid and as no memory have what happened or how it happened.

Just some thoughts...

dontevertellmewhaticantdo
02-03-2010, 06:46 PM
Does it bother anyone that the VW Dharma van conveniently transported forward in time with the 1977 group so that they could use it to pull the wreckage off of the swan station and to drive to the Temple? I know that Sayid was in the van and thus "touching" it at the time, but to me it just seemed unnecessary and somewhat inconsistent with the time travel aspects.

This also bothered me a season or two ago when Sawyer, Juliet et al transported through time while in the longboat and the boat traveled with them.

Remember when they lowered Locke down the hole and after transporting, Sawyer was still holding the rope? I guess its safe to assume whatever is touching their bodies transports or one could over analyze and ask why their clothes transport to. Clothes are also other objects touching their bodies.

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 06:47 PM
Why is Hurley the chosen one...like llana and bram? Jacob met with everyone but his crew consisting of bram and llana were the only ones he talked talked to. Then hurley, whats so special about hurley?

And if there is no way to bring locke back to the island, real locke, not 2.0 locke or flocke or smokey or whatever you want to call him, I will be disappointed. I wish somehow Locke could go kill flocke! lol probably wont happen but a question ive been asking myself is why did smokey not kill locke so many times when he had the chance before?

Did he have this plan of using his dead body from long ago?

Could he not kill him because of locke's attachment to the island? (ben tried to kill locke when he shot him but locke was fine so could he not die on the island?)

yo, smokey didnt kill locke because he needed ben do do it, so he could use alex's likeness (cause her body's on the island) to tell him to follow locke, who was him (smokey) so he could tell him to kill jacob, and he would cause alex told him to and he felt guilty (and/or just was jealous of how jacob rejected him) also possibliy blaming jacob for alexs death, because he let it happen to protect jacob and the island

spacedaisy42
02-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Why is Hurley the chosen one...like llana and bram? Jacob met with everyone but his crew consisting of bram and llana were the only ones he talked talked to. Then hurley, whats so special about hurley?

Because Hurley can talk with the dead and Jacob knows that. He probably knew he was going to die and that Hurley's special ability would be needed after his death. That's my guess anyway.


Any significance to jack's neck bleeding in the airplane bathroom?

I took it to mean that there was some residual injury from the explosion. These two story lines are solidly connected in one way or another. And some of the little details make me think that if they are not both real that this second one is somehow false. The little details that bleed through but are not quite correct and just seem to perfect. I don't know. I'm torn on this to be perfectly honest.



3. Sayid: When the Japanese guy says that “they’ll be in a lot of trouble” if Sayid dies, maybe this is a warning from Jacob that MIB will be able to inhabit his body if he is not saved in the temple, much like MIB was able to do when Locke died – AND since Sayid will be in the temple while attempted to be saved, MIB will be able to get through their defenses/wards/etc when he dies since Sayid is already in the spring room. At this point I believe that all of the apparitions on the island were MIB (e.g. Christian manipulating Ben to turn the wheel to so he can set the survivor’s return in motion to bring about dead Locke onto the island in the first place).


While this is an interesting thought, I have a problem with it. John's body is not technically possessed by MIB. He is taking on the form of John and John's body is present as well. So I can't see how Sayid dying causes a risk for MIB to take possession of his body and use him as a portal so to speak into this temple.

milie
02-03-2010, 06:53 PM
Sorry if it has already been said, but the thread is long...

1. Everbody keeps asking if Charlie really wanted to kill himself, but there is for me another difference : during the turbulences, he was not in the toilets yet. He went only after. Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling I've seen him during the turbulences (it went fast so I'm not sure), and we did not see him running during the turbulences. It would make a difference, showing that the character changed, don't you think?

2. About Hurley : at first, I thought he was just joking saying that he never had bad luck. But now I think it was true, especially if the numbers don't exist anymore (because the island sank). But then : how did he win to the lottery? And what was he doing in Australia?

3. About Desmond : I really think Desmond was in the plane for a a few minutes, otherwise they would not have shown to us Jack asking where he was, and we would have seen Desmond going off the plane with the others. Could that mean that this alternate reality (not truly real yet) can still be changed? Not only it's not sure that it's going to happen, but it could happen in a different way. The reality is not sure yet, and there are "bugs" between the two realities (Jack's neck injury for example).

4. Even if the reality changes, some thing never changes : Jack with the saving pen, Kate and Claire and Aaron, Jack with his father, Charlie and death...

spacedaisy42
02-03-2010, 06:55 PM
I thought the same thing at one point too. However, someone mentioned... when MIB takes over Locke's body, Locke's dead body remains and MIB is in a "new" body. Thats why there is a Locke inside with Ben and Jacob and a Locke outside dead on the ground.

If the same principles apply here, there would be two bodies of Sayid. One dead, one inhabited by Jacob.

Someone else mentioned, Sayid could very well have been "resurrected" as Ben was as a kid and as no memory have what happened or how it happened.

Just some thoughts...

This assumes that they both operate in the same way. I kind of suspect that they don't operate the same.

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 07:00 PM
A couple initial thoughts (apologies if some of these were already mentioned):


2. Desmond: After the episode aired, I was talking to one of my buddies yesterday who’s a huge Star Trek and he made a interesting point. What if Desmond’s purpose in S6 is similar to Captain Picard’s at the finale of The Next Generation. He was able to travel through different time periods/dimensions to bring everyone together in each one for a common goal. Far out theory but still interesting since Lost creators are big sci-fi fans.

dude, and in one of the time flashes, Faraday knocks on the hatch door and:

FARADAY: Yeah... in a way. But listen, that's not important. What is important, Desmond, is what I'm about to say to you. I need you to listen. You're the only person who can help us because, Desmond... the rules... the rules don't apply to you. You're special. You're uniquely and miraculously special.

so maybe not so far out, also elloies said the island wasnt done with des

dgb100
02-03-2010, 07:08 PM
I'm wating for Locke and Lennon to reunite to make Apocolypse When?, Col. Kurtz's Psychodelic Time Warping Revenge.:p

Just for the record, is Lennon's name really Lennon (I never caught his name) or has everyone in Lost-land spontaneously started to call him that?

funkymonkey4710
02-03-2010, 07:09 PM
I agree with the theory that everyone will be on the same plane again for different agendas in order for fate to correct the timeline. Obviously it was hinted at in the episode with Jack most likely having to go back to Austrailia to get Christian's body, Locke maybe having to go back to do the walk about after he is fixed by Jack, Sun and Jin possibly getting deported back to Australia because of the money, Kate might go back to escape America again, it goes on and on.
Also is anyone else wondering what happened to the rest of the Ajira flight survivors who were not part of the Ilana crew. Did they just disappear or are they stuck living on the Hydra island?

bushbass
02-03-2010, 07:14 PM
Still 10 pages to read but I haven't seen anyone say the when maybe the island is underwater it is because that is where it moved when Ben turned the wheel. If we are saying there are multiple time lines I assume there are more than 2 possible time lines. Maybe there is one where the island moves and everyone dies?...

funkymonkey4710
02-03-2010, 07:25 PM
Oh that is another thing I wanted to bring up, I am not seeing how a hydrogen bomb would cause an entire island to go underwater, they plainly showed the Others houses and they were intact underwater, if a bomb went off they would have been obliterated. Maybe the island went underwater because of a huge tsunami?
IDK

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 07:26 PM
Still 10 pages to read but I haven't seen anyone say the when maybe the island is underwater it is because that is where it moved when Ben turned the wheel. If we are saying there are multiple time lines I assume there are more than 2 possible time lines. Maybe there is one where the island moves and everyone dies?...

i get down with the idea that there are more than two time lines, or they are constantly changing, but if the plane didnt crash, christian and locke wouldnt be there to tell ben to move the island, also the freighter might not be their so ben might not have to move the island in the first place.

i think the nuke just sank the island

funkymonkey4710
02-03-2010, 07:27 PM
i get down with the idea that there are more than two time lines, or they are constantly changing, but if the plane didnt crash, christian and locke wouldnt be there to tell ben to move the island, also the freighter might not be their so ben might not have to move the island in the first place.

i think the nuke just sank the island

I don't see how a nuke can sink an island, not only that but the Other's houses were plainly intact which would otherwise be obliterated had a hydrogen bomb gone off.

dgb100
02-03-2010, 07:30 PM
Not to mention the houses would have been crushed if they as far underwater as they appeared to be. Or knocked over when the swirling water hit them as the island sunk. Or stepped on by Godzilla.

Alexandre de Canecroix
02-03-2010, 07:33 PM
Oh that is another thing I wanted to bring up, I am not seeing how a hydrogen bomb would cause an entire island to go underwater, they plainly showed the Others houses and they were intact underwater, if a bomb went off they would have been obliterated. Maybe the island went underwater because of a huge tsunami?
IDK

Or somebody moved the island, keeping it intact.

funkymonkey4710
02-03-2010, 07:33 PM
True true, but I think it is safe to say that if a hydrogen bomb had gone off on the island, It would have looked a lot worse then it did.

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 07:35 PM
um, i wanna post a link in response

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 07:35 PM
but i cant till i hsve 10 posts!

Muad'Dib3030
02-03-2010, 07:36 PM
Oh that is another thing I wanted to bring up, I am not seeing how a hydrogen bomb would cause an entire island to go underwater, they plainly showed the Others houses and they were intact underwater, if a bomb went off they would have been obliterated. Maybe the island went underwater because of a huge tsunami?
IDK

the barracks are on the other side of the island, the hatch was close to the survivors camp. check out this map:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Lost_island_map_v3_3.png

the hole juliet fell down was pretty friggin deep.

check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp6aZIhHiRE
the houses coulda survived

fido815
02-03-2010, 07:51 PM
I'm not sure whether Locke / Smoke Monster is the same Monster we've always seen...the one that killed Eko and Nikki. It always seemed that the Smoke Monster was doing the work of the Island. Now we have him apparently saying that he wants to go home. I'm more than a little confused at this point. :confused:

JD84
02-03-2010, 07:51 PM
Any significance to jack's neck bleeding in the airplane bathroom?

I think the same reason he remembers Desmond, his memories and even physical injuries are crossing over form the original timeline. Flashsideways, that injury is most likely crossing over form when 815 crashed



I took it to mean that there was some residual injury from the explosion. These two story lines are solidly connected in one way or another. And some of the little details make me think that if they are not both real that this second one is somehow false. The little details that bleed through but are not quite correct and just seem to perfect. I don't know. I'm torn on this to be perfectly honest.


See my post above. I agree that both timlines are interwinded together like thread, but Jack started bleeding after flying over the island underwater, the same time 815 crashed in the other timeline. His injury was from 815 crashing. These flashes are flashsideways from the pilot not from the 2007 story.

You Got It Blondie
02-03-2010, 07:53 PM
For my first post I would just like to say....I have been reading the same mistake over and over again in many posts...yeah...so my first post is kind bitchy....but correct....

Daniel F said "I'm going to detonate a hydrogen bomb...."
But the instructions in his journal describe how to remove the core of the bomb, and then use that core to detonate/disrupt the magnetic energy at the Swan site.

Check out this wiki page....a quarter way down the page to "Fusion-boosted fission weapons" and look at the name of the device....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_design#Implosion_method

A hydrogen bomb is essentially a double bomb...an inner fission bomb, which when detonated, compresses the nuclear material in the outer fusion bomb causing the larger H-bomb explosion. It's like when the hammer of a gun hits the primer in the cartridge, then the primer ignites the powder causing that pressure to launch a bullit.

So no one ever detonated an H-bomb. Jack dumped a tiny (ha) plutonium bomb down the Swan shaft, not a Edward Teller-esque H-bomb that would have been capable of blowing the island off the globe.



Also..back on subject.....I think that Charlie was trying to hide his drugs...If he was planning on dying he could have opened the baggie and ate the whole lot. Charlie would know how much heroin it would take to kill himself. When he started to choke....well "so be it" thinks Charlie. Then fix-it-guy Jack has to show up.....This Charlie would never have the guts to commit suicide, but he would welcome an accident.