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Dharma Ranch Dressing
02-16-2010, 05:40 PM
This thread is for discussion of the February 16th episode: "The Substitute".

Please see the 6x04 In-show Analysis & Chat thread for general "excitement" comments made during the airing.

For more information on this episode, please visit the Lostpedia Wiki page dedicated to this episode.

Please do not post ANY spoilers in this thread without marking them with the spoiler tags.
This includes any information from Promos - Ads - Trailers that are shown after the episode or at any other time.

For more information on what we consider a spoiler here, please see Lostpedia Forum Spoiler Policy. (http://forum.lostpedia.com/showthread.php?t=41229)

Thanks and enjoy!

Dharma Ranch Dressing
02-17-2010, 01:50 AM
Open for business

Rancid Potato
02-17-2010, 01:52 AM
I can't see lost live so I'll just settle for an episode of FLOSS: The Stubby Tooth. :s
EDIT: Wrong Thread. Sorry about that. :-(

Nick_Linus
02-17-2010, 02:01 AM
Here we go!

locke-n-load
02-17-2010, 02:07 AM
smoke monsters...the only way to travel

jessiiicax14
02-17-2010, 03:01 AM
the numbers on the cave wall with their names?!?

DriveShaftSucks
02-17-2010, 03:02 AM
I don't even know where to begin...

WhateverHappened
02-17-2010, 03:02 AM
HOLY CRAP! They explained the whole damn show in one episode!

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:02 AM
Why isn't kate one of the numbered ones? She was touched by Jacob.

DharmaWine
02-17-2010, 03:04 AM
I wonder why Ilana/Bram and co. thought that Frank may have been a potential candidate... please don't tell me there's yet another list.

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:04 AM
Great episode...don't know where to start with theories and such...so many things are coming together though, about the people who are "candidates".

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:05 AM
Why isn't kate one of the numbered ones? She was touched by Jacob.

I thought the same. She may have done something to make it to where she isn't a candidate anymore.

DharmaWine
02-17-2010, 03:05 AM
Why isn't kate one of the numbered ones? She was touched by Jacob.

Maybe touching them is him merely his method of judging them, as opposed to necessarily nominating.

jessiiicax14
02-17-2010, 03:05 AM
Why isn't kate one of the numbered ones? She was touched by Jacob.

this is very true. and also why wasnt lockes name crossed out if he is actually dead

MinionOfEckerd
02-17-2010, 03:06 AM
this is very true. and also why wasnt lockes name crossed out if he is actually dead

Jacob wasn't able to get to his cave to cross Locke off in time?

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:06 AM
I'll tell you another thing I know now... the 1st Smokie that Locke encountered, leaving him with "it's beautiful man", and "the island needs protecting", was Jacob, not who we've come to know as Smokie or now JLokie here.

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:06 AM
Why isn't kate one of the numbered ones? She was touched by Jacob.
They didn't show Jin or Sun without a cross either, did they?

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:06 AM
this is very true. and also why wasnt lockes name crossed out if he is actually dead


Maybe Jacob never found the time to cross it out?

Strokedown
02-17-2010, 03:06 AM
Now, the fundamental question is is Jacob really the protector, trying to keep MiB from wreaking havoc on the outside world, or is MiB just a man being kept unfairly on the island?

My money is on MiB being an even better manipulator than Ben.

CTS
02-17-2010, 03:06 AM
Wow one of the best episodes ever. So much to think about...

- Mysterious island kid -- is it Jacob? His brother/son??
- The cave -- I need to rewatch that scene to see what other names were written
- and of course -- Ben is a teacher!!!!!!!!!! :D

caldwell.the.great
02-17-2010, 03:07 AM
oh man. that was incredible. i simply hope that Flocke's explanation for the numbers isn't the last one.

finally satisfied with the entirety of an episode. completely mystified by the little boy. anyone care to comment?

JK345
02-17-2010, 03:07 AM
Is it possible that everyone on the island has a number corresponding to them?

Maybe the Valenzetti Equation simply chose those who would be candidates.

Ever Adrift
02-17-2010, 03:07 AM
I'll tell you another thing I know now... the 1st Smokie that Locke encountered, leaving him with "it's beautiful man", and "the island needs protecting", was Jacob, not who we've come to know as Smokie or now JLokie here.


I agree; I've thought this for some time now.

My two big questions are: why wasn't Kate's name shown on the wall and why did Ilana tell Lapidus he was a candidate?

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:08 AM
HOLY CRAP! They explained the whole damn show in one episode!
Errr... what? They might have pulled the curtain back from some of it, but all is far from being answered!

lostaddict12
02-17-2010, 03:08 AM
Well that was epic.


Smokey point of view at the beginning was sweet :D
Helen in the alt timeline was nice... also Rose at the company was really cool. And nothing beats nerdy history teacher Ben. :D:D


Also wondering why Kate wasn't a candidate.

Mister Echo
02-17-2010, 03:08 AM
I'll tell you another thing I know now... the 1st Smokie that Locke encountered, leaving him with "it's beautiful man", and "the island needs protecting", was Jacob, not who we've come to know as Smokie or now JLokie here.

I agree. There's a REASON they didn't show it to us that time. I wasn't sure before, but now I am.

Strokedown
02-17-2010, 03:08 AM
Why isn't kate one of the numbered ones? She was touched by Jacob.

Perhaps Kate is "The Substitute" in the event that one of the candidates dies. For example, if Sayid ends up dead, Kate would take his place.

kayekaye1234
02-17-2010, 03:08 AM
So how do we know that Flocke isn't just lying. I just don't believe him. He ripped off the french guys arm, and killed the pilot.

zombelious
02-17-2010, 03:09 AM
I'm guessing that the little kid was jacob, reborn. Sort of like a phoenix. He died, and once he burned up into ashes he was able to be revived. It's his ashes that keep away the smokey?

And why wasn't kate's name on the wall? jacob met her in the past, just like the rest of the candidates. i wonder why she isn't on the list.

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:09 AM
My first thought about the boy was that he was Jacob. I don't know why he was speaking of himself in third person though, if it was him. It kinda goes together with only "chosen" people being able to see Jacob, and MiB's reaction when Sawyer could see him.

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:10 AM
Is this even Jacob's cave? Couldn't MIB be lying? Trying to manipulate Sawyer?

AND WTF BEN IS A TEACHER

lostaddict12
02-17-2010, 03:10 AM
yeah I thought the kid was Jacob too.

JulietDetonatesMyHeart
02-17-2010, 03:10 AM
A good episode, although I feel like a lot more could've happened. I loved the cave with all the names (AND NUMBERS!) written inside. I loved seeing Flocke and seeing him as Smokey. !

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:10 AM
I agree; I've thought this for some time now.

My two big questions are: why wasn't Kate's name shown on the wall and why did Ilana tell Lapidus he was a candidate? I bet'chya she's planned to be and is going to be a "foiler" in JLokie's plan. A poison pill if Jacob ever met the end that he did.

Kate is "not a good person", and we know what "Others", diciples of Jacob, do to people categorized as "not a good person". I often wondered why Kate was there. I'm betting this'll be why.

caldwell.the.great
02-17-2010, 03:11 AM
So how do we know that Flocke isn't just lying. I just don't believe him. He ripped off the french guys arm, and killed the pilot.

Totally. I don't think we have good reason to trust Flocke. He calls the island "just an island." It has to be obvious to everyone that this isn't the case. How many islands have wheels in them that can shift time and space? And how many of those wheels dump you in the middle of a desert?

elfdream
02-17-2010, 03:11 AM
I agree; I've thought this for some time now.

My two big questions are: why wasn't Kate's name shown on the wall and why did Ilana tell Lapidus he was a candidate?


Did they ever say he was a candidate? I thought Brahm or whatever his name was merely curious as to why Ilana was keeping Lapidus around and threw that out as a possible explanation. I don't think they ever said it was anything definite.

jtavano
02-17-2010, 03:11 AM
I agree. There's a REASON they didn't show it to us that time. I wasn't sure before, but now I am.

I've been wondering about two smokies for years now...and yeah, I tend to still believe it. Flocke definitely doesnt sound like much of a security system

lostaddict12
02-17-2010, 03:12 AM
Oh, Ben admitting he murdered Locke was weird. I loved Frank's line "weirdest funeral I've ever been to," lol :p

dbetter
02-17-2010, 03:12 AM
That episode was 53 minutes of worthless filler and 2 minutes of actual story progression stretched out into 7 minutes.

kayekaye1234
02-17-2010, 03:12 AM
I vote the boy is Aaron.

And we didn't get to read the entire cave, Kate might be there. Anyone got it to watch yet?

Krams706
02-17-2010, 03:12 AM
Very good episode. I get the feeling from all of the names on the wall that Jacob visited A LOT more people than who we saw in The Incident, maybe even everyone on 815. That's why so many names were crossed off.

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:13 AM
I vote the boy is Aaron.

And we didn't get to read the entire cave, Kate might be there. Anyone got it to watch yet?

If she is there, she's not one of the numbers.

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:13 AM
Is this even Jacob's cave? Couldn't MIB be lying? Trying to manipulate Sawyer?

AND WTF BEN IS A TEACHER

I think it was Jacob's cave, but MiB was definitely manipulating Sawyer. Showing part of the truth and twisting it.

jtavano
02-17-2010, 03:13 AM
cant wait for hi-res screenshots of the cave

DharmaWine
02-17-2010, 03:14 AM
I thought that Frank "could be" a candidate, not that he was definitely one.

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:14 AM
Is it possible that everyone on the island has a number corresponding to them?

Maybe the Valenzetti Equation simply chose those who would be candidates.And like the butterfly effect, removing them from the world, had far reaching ramifications. Interestingly, they were removed far after the timeframe when the Valenzetti was said to define the end to the world.

OI really hope there's no truth to what I just typed; I don't like the idea.

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:14 AM
Oh, btw, Richard Alpert freaking out made that episode. And he's just been following Jacob blindly this entire time? I would think he had some incentive.

PirateGuy 815
02-17-2010, 03:15 AM
Oh my God, what a fantastic episode. I dare say one ofthe best in the entire series. So many questions were answered, and I loved every single minute of it. Seriously, there was so much to digest that I really have to think about this stuff before I post about the show.

Off the top of my head:
-Locke's funeral was sad, touching, and funny. I think Ben was really being sincere, and he was saying everything I was feelig, but it came off as humerous. I was upset that they burried him, but I still have faith that we have not seen the last of him. If my theory is right, he cannot be gone unless Jacob crosses his name off. I'm still thniking about the details.
-Locke as a sub was pretty funny, but Ben as A teacher is hilarious. I guess the bomb didn't dink the Island in ALT, otherwise he would be dead.

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:15 AM
Was Mr. Linus an attempt to backfill the Ben character seeing as how it might be that he's kinda not that significant now what with fLocke and Jacob running the show now? Like I can't imagine Ben's name was in the cave.

shelita
02-17-2010, 03:16 AM
I was hoping we'd see a flash-back of smokie scanning Locke...

Ever Adrift
02-17-2010, 03:16 AM
I vote the boy is Aaron.

And we didn't get to read the entire cave, Kate might be there. Anyone got it to watch yet?

Who had what number? Was one of 'the numbers' missing and that would be Kates?

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:16 AM
Something just entered my mind... I completely forgot about missing Faraday and a lot of the other characters I wish weren't gone... ;P this ep was so epic!

zombelious
02-17-2010, 03:16 AM
Oh, btw, Richard Alpert freaking out made that episode. And he's just been following Jacob blindly this entire time? I would think he had some incentive.

I don't think he had a choice, really. he was 'in chains' until just recently, right?

The Observer
02-17-2010, 03:16 AM
I foresaw the Losties being the Numbers since my theory on Lost revolves around the Valenzetti equation...as I see it the conflict between MIB and Jacob can be mirrored to season 2's conflict in the hatch and whether to push the button. Different philosophies clashing, man of science (Jack/MIB), man of faith (Jacob/Locke), etc. Thematically, MIB got tired of the button (entering the Numbers) being pushed by Jacob. As we know not entering the Numbers leads to a catastrophic event despite what the man of science (and Locke as well) might believe. The episode also suggests that Faraday was right about the Variables since of course the Numbers are the variables in the Valenzetti equation (aimed at preventing doomsday).

aznbarber
02-17-2010, 03:16 AM
it looks like all the names are of men. so my guess is that jin is 42 no sun. why kate isn't numbered is odd though. maybe she is a candidate for a different job, that of smokey.

Desmond4ever
02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
Smokey owns bro. Can't wait for a smokie centric, probably end up with 1-2 more katie centrics before we get to the good stuff :D

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
His soundtrack was "Search and Destroy," lol.

The Observer
02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
I think the kid was Aaron, would make perfect sense...

AlldaylongIthinkaboutlost
02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
So I assume that was said because of what MIB said about not being sure which one it was, Jin or Sun? As such, they knew they could not kill them because that is against the rules. So do the people in the Temple then know about the numbers? Or do they just know about it as a list of sort?

lostaddict12
02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
The white and black stones on the scale. That was very cool. Very. cool.

"Inside joke" :p

PirateGuy 815
02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
Oh, and I think the whole cave scene proved Jacob is good and MiB is bad. And seeing Richard scared was awesome.

Anyone else think the little kid may be Aaron? :)

kayekaye1234
02-17-2010, 03:18 AM
-Locke as a sub was pretty funny, but Ben as A teacher is hilarious. I guess the bomb didn't dink the Island in ALT, otherwise he would be dead.

But it did show the island sunk in the flash sideways so they all got off or never even came to the island.

Evangeline Lilly is hot
02-17-2010, 03:18 AM
I think the list from the Ankh contains the numbers/candidates on them. Hence Lennon saying if Sayid dies, they're toast.

haiddengould
02-17-2010, 03:18 AM
I agree; I've thought this for some time now.

My two big questions are: why wasn't Kate's name shown on the wall and why did Ilana tell Lapidus he was a candidate?

I believe that Ilana and Bram only speculated that he might be a candidate. Something like "He might be a candidate". That is how I remember it.

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:18 AM
That episode was 53 minutes of worthless filler and 2 minutes of actual story progression stretched out into 7 minutes. ... this is what ignore filters are made for.

Dowd
02-17-2010, 03:18 AM
Good Lord. That had to be the weirdest, most revealing episode ever.

Leprechaun chases, the monster's POV, cowering Richard, Pulp Fiction camera angles, Spaghetti Western ladder sequences, a cave full of Easter Eggs, the list goes on. Rose's occupation. Coincidences explained. (So was Randy Locke's boss and Hurley's enemy specifically so Locke and Hurley would meet in the alternate universe?) Plus, Katey Sagal's Sons of Anarchy contract allows her to appear on LOST simulatneously. Who would've guessed?

Nothing but payoff.

I can't believe this happened. I'm pleased beyond words.

Also, was Henry Ian Cusick listed in the opening credits as a regular now?

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:18 AM
That episode was 53 minutes of worthless filler and 2 minutes of actual story progression stretched out into 7 minutes.

:confused:Dude, I could not agree LESS. I thought it was epic.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:19 AM
DVR'd and it looks like the ceiling says 'Austen' but can't see a # associated with it.
Also looks like "Littleton" is crossed out.

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:20 AM
Was that cliff the same one where Dave tempted Hurley to jump?

DharmaWine
02-17-2010, 03:20 AM
Again, to those asking the names that were with "the numbers"
4-Locke
8-Reyes
15-Ford
16-Jarrah
23-Shephard
42-(Kwon)

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:20 AM
I almost threw up when I saw Locke and Helen kissing. Just didn't sit well.

blueray
02-17-2010, 03:20 AM
I think the list from the Ankh contains the numbers/candidates on them. Hence Lennon saying if Sayid dies, they're toast.

exactly, because then they lost another possible canidate.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:20 AM
4:
4: Locke
8: Reyes
15: Ford
16: Jarrah
23: Shephard
42: Kwon

zombelious
02-17-2010, 03:20 AM
Oh, and I think the whole cave scene proved Jacob is good and MiB is bad. And seeing Richard scared was awesome.

Anyone else think the little kid may be Aaron? :)
it seems like a lot of people think he's aaron. i'm still thinking he's jacob. either would make sense, really, but how would aaron get on the island? did claire do something?

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:21 AM
Another possible double meaning of substitute is Kate for Sawyer in the Oceanic Six, if:

4. Locke
8. Reyes
15. Ford
16. Jarrah
23. Shephard
42. Kwon (Sun)

brendons
02-17-2010, 03:21 AM
yeah
i accidentally muted the part with richard in the jungle as i was putting the sheets on my bed

he was talking to sawyer and jumping around like he had to pee, and then he just left.

i lol'd

Dowd
02-17-2010, 03:21 AM
Was that cliff the same one where Dave tempted Hurley to jump?

Wasn't Dave just Smokey trying to get Hurley to kill himself?

estaman
02-17-2010, 03:21 AM
Well that was epic.


Smokey point of view at the beginning was sweet :D
Helen in the alt timeline was nice... also Rose at the company was really cool. And nothing beats nerdy history teacher Ben. :D:D


Also wondering why Kate wasn't a candidate.

I was thinking prissy history teacher Ben.

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:22 AM
Was Sayid's name crossed off? Cause he's kinda dead...ish.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:23 AM
Oh, and I think the whole cave scene proved Jacob is good and MiB is bad. And seeing Richard scared was awesome.

Anyone else think the little kid may be Aaron? :)

IDK, I'm still thinking nothing is proven at this point. All smoke and mirrors until the endgame. MIB could be manipulating in an effort to recruit. Richard/Others could be. Jacob could have been.

Many people are thinking the kid is Aaron. Or young Jacob. Or a 3rd spirit. My mind is spinning right now with all the possibilities...

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:23 AM
Oh, btw, Richard Alpert freaking out made that episode. And he's just been following Jacob blindly this entire time? I would think he had some incentive. that was quite poignant. I was like, "wwwwoeaaaa" to that.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:23 AM
I think kid=jacob most likely. At first I thought Aaron, then realized by "you can't kill him" he was referring to Richard. If he were referring to Jacob (which I realize now would be dumb) it'd make sense for him to Aaron - Jacob's kooky but he doesn't refer to himself in the 3rd person that I've noticed.

estaman
02-17-2010, 03:24 AM
Oh, btw, Richard Alpert freaking out made that episode. And he's just been following Jacob blindly this entire time? I would think he had some incentive.

I think that it follows the whole faith versus science concept. You don't truly believe if you only believe when it's easy. Doubting Thomas from Christianity and all that.

Time Will Tell
02-17-2010, 03:24 AM
Maybe touching them is him merely his method of judging them, as opposed to necessarily nominating.

Kate: ""If nominated I will run."

brendons
02-17-2010, 03:24 AM
Was Sayid's name crossed off? Cause he's kinda dead...ish.

after jacob's "time"

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:24 AM
Also, fLocke threw the white stone out to sea, right? Could this imply he thinks black won over white? That can't be good.

iLose
02-17-2010, 03:25 AM
I feel like there should be more than just three choices from MIB if you're a candidate, you can't even be the next Jacob if you're just a "candidate"
Does this mean that MIB's home actually IS outside of the Island? It could also be he wants to kick everyone OUT of the island because he said that presence of humans on the Island would only end in fighting, destruction and corruption as it always had

BSandford
02-17-2010, 03:25 AM
Anyone else love the scene with the psychic who Hurleys dad paid off to tell him the numbers weren't cursed. She was the women who intereviewed lock at the temp agency before Rose walked in

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:25 AM
In on-island reality/time, Aaron is with his grandmother, yes?

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:25 AM
after jacob's "time"


Oh, duh. Brainfart.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:25 AM
Was that cliff the same one where Dave tempted Hurley to jump?

If so, this would support Richard's claim that he (Flocke) wants to kill them all. But, on the other hand, wouldn't he have had so many chances to do that in the past?

CTS
02-17-2010, 03:25 AM
I think that it follows the whole faith versus science concept. You don't truly believe if you only believe when it's easy. Doubting Thomas from Christianity and all that.
And Flocke asking Richard to come with him reminded me of Satan's temptation of Jesus...

BSandford
02-17-2010, 03:26 AM
Anyone else love the scene with the psychic who Hurleys dad paid off to tell him the numbers weren't cursed. She was the women who intereviewed lock at the temp agency before Rose walked in

I think Lynn Karnoff is her name

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:26 AM
:confused:Dude, I could not agree LESS. I thought it was epic.he's not on Jacob's list.

JK345
02-17-2010, 03:27 AM
If so, this would support Richard's claim that he (Flocke) wants to kill them all. But, on the other hand, wouldn't he have had so many chances to do that in the past?Perhaps he couldn't kill them because it is "against the rules?"

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:27 AM
"You can't kill him."

Sawyer is him. MiB can't directly kill any of the candidates, the same as he couldn't kill Jacob.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:27 AM
And Flocke asking Richard to come with him reminded me of Satan's temptation of Jesus...

Everything about Flocke reminds me of Satan - especially in this episode!
First, he tried to recruit Richard. Richard=power because of his knowledge and crazy ability to never age.
That didn't work out, so he tried to recruit Sawyer, who was weak and more vulnerable than anyone else on the candidate list.

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:28 AM
Oh, and Ilana taking Jacob's ashes? Does this suggest that the ash that keeps MIB out is former Jacobs? Or Jacob candidates?

Sonjie
02-17-2010, 03:28 AM
Oh, btw, Richard Alpert freaking out made that episode. And he's just been following Jacob blindly this entire time? I would think he had some incentive.

That was a seriously huge moment for me. And Richard doesn't seem like an unreasonable man. I'm can't wait to see what Jacob said to him to get him to do all those things. Altho, I'm confused because when Justin and Aldo were arguing last week they seemed to know about the whole candidate concept, how does Richard not know? Or am I assuming too much, do Aldo and Justin just know that people on lists made by Jacob are special in general?

estaman
02-17-2010, 03:28 AM
I think kid=jacob most likely. At first I thought Aaron, then realized by "you can't kill him" he was referring to Richard. If he were referring to Jacob (which I realize now would be dumb) it'd make sense for him to Aaron - Jacob's kooky but he doesn't refer to himself in the 3rd person that I've noticed.

I kind of wondered if the "You can't kill him" line meant that Flocke can't kill Sawyer because he's still a 'candidate'. But I also think the rule is that Flocke can't kill him _directly_. Influencing one of the 'candidates' to the point of their death, ie. convincing Hurley to kill himself by jumping off of a cliff, etc is within the rules of the game.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:28 AM
"You can't kill him."

Sawyer is him. MiB can't directly kill any of the candidates, the same as he couldn't kill Jacob.

I felt like he was referring to Richard, since that is when Weird Little Bloody Boy first appeared - during the confrontation with Richard.

zombelious
02-17-2010, 03:29 AM
Oh, and Ilana taking Jacob's ashes? Does this suggest that the ash that keeps MIB out is former Jacobs? Or Jacob candidates?
exactly what i was thinking

AlldaylongIthinkaboutlost
02-17-2010, 03:29 AM
So, the people in the Temple know that either Sun or Jin is on the list because Aldo says Jin "might be one of them" before he is about to shoot him. So the temple people know more than I thought...

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:30 AM
Another possible double meaning of substitute is Kate for Sawyer in the Oceanic Six, if:

4. Locke
8. Reyes
15. Ford
16. Jarrah
23. Shephard
42. Kwon (Sun) Absolutely... Sun. Dogen was just fine with letting Kate out, and letting Jin go with her. I vote it's Sun too.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:30 AM
I think kid=jacob most likely. At first I thought Aaron, then realized by "you can't kill him" he was referring to Richard. If he were referring to Jacob (which I realize now would be dumb) it'd make sense for him to Aaron - Jacob's kooky but he doesn't refer to himself in the 3rd person that I've noticed.

I thought it referred to Sawyer. I think the spirit kid was reminding Flocke of the rules. It must be that Flocke has to make them choose his side of their own free will. But he cannot force them or kill them. Or something.

BSandford
02-17-2010, 03:30 AM
Great episode

One thing that bothered me is that we saw Ben in AR. Of course we knew this was coming but by my thinking wouldn't he have sunk with the island after the incident? Ethan got off because he would've been evacuated in the sub with the other women and children in Dharmaville. But Ben at this point was at the temple being healed?

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:30 AM
I felt like he was referring to Richard, since that is when Weird Little Bloody Boy first appeared - during the confrontation with Richard.

It could be about both of them. Both appearances were reminders of the rules.

Ever Adrift
02-17-2010, 03:30 AM
it seems like a lot of people think he's aaron. i'm still thinking he's jacob. either would make sense, really, but how would aaron get on the island? did claire do something?

I really don't get the whole 'young Jacob' angle; the child spoke of Jacob in the third person and we've already seen Jacob appear after his death as an adult. Why would he then appear as a child? Finally, when Jacob appeared to Hurley after his death he made a point of telling Hurley that only he could see him (although Jack, Sawyer and Jin (who may or may not be a candidate)) while Sawyer was able to see the kid. Just doesn't work for me.

Also, I don't think that the fact that the five known 'Candidates' are all male indicates that only men can be candidates; seems a little... well, sexist, for this show. I have a strong feeling that Sun will end up being the candidate, I'm calling it now.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:31 AM
Until that point, Flocke had shown zero interest in killing Sawyer.
And, I believe from the last scene, he NEEDS Sawyer.

IcKsElGlIC
02-17-2010, 03:31 AM
But yet in past seasons he would just kill people... hmmmm

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:31 AM
I felt like he was referring to Richard, since that is when Weird Little Bloody Boy first appeared - during the confrontation with Richard.

Yes, but Richard couldn't see him. Sawyer could and Flocke seemed surprised by that. It must be because he is a candidate. Perhaps different rules apply? I still think he meant Sawyer.

swhunter
02-17-2010, 03:32 AM
It was a great episode, although I think things moved a bit slowly with Flocke and Sawyer. I'm liking the numbers explanation, but I have to say that I hope its fleshed out a bit more in future episodes. Flocke said Jacob "had a thing for numbers." I want to know what that "thing" is. And which Kwon is #42? My guess is Sun.

As for the boy, it could easily be a young Jacob or an older Aaron or someone else. I suspect its Aaron, but its only a hunch.

But I think something is happening with Flocke. His whole "don't tell me what I can't do" moment betrayed his position as being totally in control.

Can't wait for next week!

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:32 AM
Obviously James has been served a heaping pile of despair the last few episodes so that he would be all "hell yeah" about leaving the island. Thoughts on why fLocke needs a Lostie, or James in particular, to get off the island?

1hit1der
02-17-2010, 03:32 AM
Well.. now we know why the temple others let Jin and Kate go look for Sawyer, because they are not candiadates. (Sun still is)

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:32 AM
Also, I don't think that the fact that the five known 'Candidates' are all male indicates that only men can be candidates; seems a little... well, sexist, for this show. I have a strong feeling that Sun will end up being the candidate, I'm calling it now.

Agreed. Sun has always felt more central to the plot than Jin.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:33 AM
Absolutely... Sun. Dogen was just fine with letting Kate out, and letting Jin go with her. I vote it's Sun too.

Yes. I was kind of undecided about this, but you make an excellent point. I'm jumping on this train.

Edcculus
02-17-2010, 03:34 AM
One thing I wanted to point out and pose. While this kind of explains The Numbers, it doesn't explain why the Dharma folk know about them. The original recording, the numbers on the hatch, the "button" etc.

BSandford
02-17-2010, 03:34 AM
It was a great episode, although I think things moved a bit slowly with Flocke and Sawyer. I'm liking the numbers explanation, but I have to say that I hope its fleshed out a bit more in future episodes. Flocke said Jacob "had a thing for numbers." I want to know what that "thing" is. And which Kwon is #42? My guess is Sun.


Why not both of the kwons? After Jacob touched them both in AR.

estaman
02-17-2010, 03:34 AM
Until that point, Flocke had shown zero interest in killing Sawyer.
And, I believe from the last scene, he NEEDS Sawyer.

I think that you're right to some degree. One of the most telling lines in this episode was that MiB was 'recruiting'. He may be powerful and Smokey, but whatever he is trying to do (get off the Island, kill everyone, etc), he obviously can't do it on his own against all of Jacob's 'allies' (Others, Temple Others, maybe the O6 'candidates').

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:34 AM
I really don't get the whole 'young Jacob' angle; the child spoke of Jacob in the third person and we've already seen Jacob appear after his death as an adult. Why would he then appear as a child? Finally, when Jacob appeared to Hurley after his death he made a point of telling Hurley that only he could see him (although Jack, Sawyer and Jin (who may or may not be a candidate)) while Sawyer was able to see the kid. Just doesn't work for me.

We don't know that he was speaking of himself/Jacob, could have been Sawyer (MiB may have been planning on killing Sawyer right then).

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:35 AM
I can't keep the timelines and chronology straight, but there's no storyline where Aaron would be the age of the mystery kid, is there?

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:35 AM
All of these threads being merged is kind of confusing.

stevieg83
02-17-2010, 03:35 AM
its the numbers again :

Hurleys lotto numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42.

Latch number 4 8 15 16 23 42

now the cave wow check the passenger list wow!!

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:35 AM
One thing I wanted to point out and pose. While this kind of explains The Numbers, it doesn't explain why the Dharma folk know about them. The original recording, the numbers on the hatch, the "button" etc.

Also doesn't explain how they could win the lottery for Hugo.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:36 AM
Obviously James has been served a heaping pile of despair the last few episodes so that he would be all "hell yeah" about leaving the island. Thoughts on why fLocke needs a Lostie, or James in particular, to get off the island?

Let us not forget that James himself is quite the manipulator. He could be conning Flocke in an effort to keep his options open and perhaps save the other Losties in the event that Richard's claim is true. Maybe James is just seeing where this goes with Locke so he can decide what he really wants. Isn't this what he did with Dharma?

MagicBox
02-17-2010, 03:36 AM
He's only nice to people he can use. Although I do hope his point to Sawyer wasn't all bullsh*t. I wouldn't like it if Smocke was "just" a manipulator. He has to have a defensible perspective, which I believe he demonstrated.

zombelious
02-17-2010, 03:37 AM
I really don't get the whole 'young Jacob' angle; the child spoke of Jacob in the third person and we've already seen Jacob appear after his death as an adult. Why would he then appear as a child? Finally, when Jacob appeared to Hurley after his death he made a point of telling Hurley that only he could see him (although Jack, Sawyer and Jin (who may or may not be a candidate)) while Sawyer was able to see the kid. Just doesn't work for me.

Also, I don't think that the fact that the five known 'Candidates' are all male indicates that only men can be candidates; seems a little... well, sexist, for this show. I have a strong feeling that Sun will end up being the candidate, I'm calling it now.
i must have missed when he referred to jacob, i'll have to rewatch. that definitely does make the young jacob theory much less likely.
When jacob died, he was thrown into the fire and turned into ashes. no skeleton or anything left over. this might be stretching it, but i thought that was a little weird that there was NOTHING left over in the fire pit.
This led me to assume he was reborn, like a phoenix. and then just a few scenes later we see a little blonde kid talking to smokey, and the kid totally knows what's going on. it seems a lot like jacob to me.

we'll have to wait and see, though.

kayekaye1234
02-17-2010, 03:37 AM
Obviously James has been served a heaping pile of despair the last few episodes so that he would be all "hell yeah" about leaving the island. Thoughts on why fLocke needs a Lostie, or James in particular, to get off the island?

Just another rule we don't know about yet. And once off the island the smoke monster will reign Armageddon on the world -my guess. Kind of like Pandora's box.

swhunter
02-17-2010, 03:37 AM
Why not both of the kwons? After Jacob touched them both in AR.

Very true. But the conversation between Aldo and the other guy (sorry, can't remember his name), when Aldo said, "He might be one of them" leads me to think its only one. But, hey -- this is LOST. Anything is possible.

rockscience
02-17-2010, 03:37 AM
It was a great episode, although I think things moved a bit slowly with Flocke and Sawyer. I'm liking the numbers explanation, but I have to say that I hope its fleshed out a bit more in future episodes. Flocke said Jacob "had a thing for numbers." I want to know what that "thing" is. And which Kwon is #42? My guess is Sun.

As for the boy, it could easily be a young Jacob or an older Aaron or someone else. I suspect its Aaron, but its only a hunch.

But I think something is happening with Flocke. His whole "don't tell me what I can't do" moment betrayed his position as being totally in control.

Can't wait for next week!

I say the Kwon is Jin simply because none of the other females were mentioned, unless I missed Austen on there somewhere...

Ever Adrift
02-17-2010, 03:37 AM
Great episode

One thing that bothered me is that we saw Ben in AR. Of course we knew this was coming but by my thinking wouldn't he have sunk with the island after the incident? Ethan got off because he would've been evacuated in the sub with the other women and children in Dharmaville. But Ben at this point was at the temple being healed?

You're assuming that 'the incident' sunk the island; I'm guessing the island sunk some time AFTER 1977 in the ALT Timeline.

LoRab
02-17-2010, 03:38 AM
Kate: ""If nominated I will run."

Of course she will...it's what Kate does.


Also, fLocke threw the white stone out to sea, right? Could this imply he thinks black won over white? That can't be good.

I loved the "it's an inside joke" line.



One thing that bothered me is that we saw Ben in AR. Of course we knew this was coming but by my thinking wouldn't he have sunk with the island after the incident? Ethan got off because he would've been evacuated in the sub with the other women and children in Dharmaville. But Ben at this point was at the temple being healed?

But we don't know how much has changed in the AR. Also, what's to say that Ben didn't somehow get off the island in some other way, and is "visiting" this reality and checking up on the Losties. Ethan, too, for that matter.

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:38 AM
Until that point, Flocke had shown zero interest in killing Sawyer.
And, I believe from the last scene, he NEEDS Sawyer. +1 to that.

But I wonder, is it because James is capable of being "the Sawyer", and being manipulated into killing -- as JLockie won't be able to fool Ben to do that again -- or is it for something else?

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:39 AM
Let us not forget that James himself is quite the manipulator. He could be conning Flocke in an effort to keep his options open and perhaps save the other Losties in the event that Richard's claim is true. Maybe James is just seeing where this goes with Locke so he can decide what he really wants. Isn't this what he did with Dharma?

Yeah, I'm sure James is tying to manage the situation to the best of his abilities. But he wouldn't be there unless fLocke had taken a particular interest in finding him and taking him to the cave, then basically telling him that he (fLocke) couldn't get off the island without him (James).

kayekaye1234
02-17-2010, 03:39 AM
i must have missed when he referred to jacob, i'll have to rewatch. that definitely does make the young jacob theory much less likely.
When jacob died, he was thrown into the fire and turned into ashes. no skeleton or anything left over. this might be stretching it, but i thought that was a little weird that there was NOTHING left over in the fire pit.
This led me to assume he was reborn, like a phoenix. and then just a few scenes later we see a little blonde kid talking to smokey, and the kid totally knows what's going on. it seems a lot like jacob to me.

we'll have to wait and see, though.

Yeah there is some reason why there was no remains of Jacob in the fire.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:39 AM
i must have missed when he referred to jacob, i'll have to rewatch. that definitely does make the young jacob theory much less likely.

He just says, "You can't kill him," it's not totally clear if he's referring to Jacob, Saywer, or Richard. Or someone else entirely.

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:40 AM
Yes. I was kind of undecided about this, but you make an excellent point. I'm jumping on this train.

The other substitute of the O6 was, of course, Aaron for Locke.

Number-name/Oceanic Six member
4. Locke/Aaron
8. Reyes/Hurley
15. Ford/Kate
16. Jarrah/Sayid
23. Shephard/Jack (or Christian)
42. Kwon/Sun or Jin

MissLiner
02-17-2010, 03:40 AM
I think I saw the crossed-off name "DOMINGO" next to a number that looked like it was in the two-hundreds.

Also, if Gary Troupe was a candidate prior to his death, is there really anything special about being chosen for that gig?

LOVED THE EP!!!!! SO MUCH TO THINK ABOUT!!!

jessiiicax14
02-17-2010, 03:40 AM
who do we think the little boy was?
__________________
4 8 15 16 23 42

swhunter
02-17-2010, 03:41 AM
I say the Kwon is Jin simply because none of the other females were mentioned, unless I missed Austen on there somewhere...

That's true. Kate's name wasn't listed there, but I'm not convinced its gender-based just from that. Can't wait to find out...

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:41 AM
Anyone else love the scene with the psychic who Hurleys dad paid off to tell him the numbers weren't cursed. She was the women who intereviewed lock at the temp agency before Rose walked in

Good catch. I knew I'd seen her before.

RSMFields
02-17-2010, 03:41 AM
I kept getting excited when it turned out I was right. Wow so much to think about it. I feel like I need to rewatch it now!

Lets see my initial thoughts which will probably change before the week is over.

I think Jacob was somehow the little boy. I wonder why Richard could not see him? I think MIB yelling You can't tell me what to do, meant your dead you can't control me anymore. More than it probably had anything to do with the fact that the little boy said you can't kill him.

Richard really did not know anything! I was right about that. I think I am getting a lot more reason to think Jacob is the bad guy.

I really liked the conversations between Sawyer and MIB. I wonder if MIB was being honest. I want to say yes, because he has yet to lie. One theory I had earlier was that MIB lost somebody he loved by being at the island. I could also see him just saying that to Sawyer since he probably knew Sawyer had just lost somebody. I want a MIB flashback!

My new theory is that possibly for MIB to leave the island there can be no protector or potential protector. I think it might be possible that if somebody steps up to do the job MIB might have to kill them. It could come down to a battle between Jack and MIB. I also think that possibly Jacob gave MIB the ability to become Smokey, just like he gave Richard the ability to not age. Now that Jacob is dead he probably is stuck, just changing into Locke

The only thing I really know is that I need to rewatch Lost!

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:42 AM
who do we think the little boy was?


Dressed in simple clothes, strawlike hair...had to be reborn Jacob.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:42 AM
Flocke's convo with the kid:

Boy: You know the rules. You can't kill him.
Flocke: Don't tell me what I can't do.
(boy shakes head & leaves)
Flocke: Don't tell me what I can't do!F

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:42 AM
Yeah there is some reason why there was no remains of Jacob in the fire.

Well, they must burn hot fires 'cause there were ashes ... which Ilana was quick to tuck away for the future.

swhunter
02-17-2010, 03:42 AM
who do we think the little boy was?
__________________
4 8 15 16 23 42

Some are saying a young Jacob; others think it might be Aaron. I think its Aaron, but its only a hunch -- not even a theory really. Could be some other spirit or force from the island.

sluhser589
02-17-2010, 03:43 AM
Dudes, it says Goodspeed on the ceiling.

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:43 AM
+1 to that.

But I wonder, is it because James is capable of being "the Sawyer", and being manipulated into killing -- as JLockie won't be able to fool Ben to do that again -- or is it for something else?

Let the Darth Sawyer blather begin!

Maybe the Island is like the Death Star too.

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:43 AM
I think the little boy was Jacob. Now that he is dead, he can only appear to Candidates, just as he appeared to Hurley in LAX 1. And he told Hurley that Jin would not be able to see him..because Jin is not a candidate Sun is!

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:44 AM
its the numbers again :

Hurleys lotto numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42.

Latch number 4 8 15 16 23 42

now the cave wow check the passenger list wow!! OMG ... welcome to the forum. You have a lot of reading and catching up to do. BTW, start with this,

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_numbers

and this
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Valenzetti_Equation

and then when you figure out how that explaination from the DHARMA perspective equates to what you learned from this ep. you let us know... :D

InTheLoop
02-17-2010, 03:44 AM
Toward the end of "What Kate Does" (post Claire drama), Kate scratches her nose, just like Jacob tapped it after rescuing Kate from stealing the NKOTB lunchbox. I think this and the scene with the Hephaestus-like welder indicate her "finishing the game"/aka atoning/apoligizing for her murderous actions and finishing her mission to save Claire and reunite her with Aaron.

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:45 AM
Also, fLocke threw the white stone out to sea, right? Could this imply he thinks black won over white? That can't be good.

Clearly the "inside joke" MIB/Locke made was that white was no longer part of the balance.

jessiiicax14
02-17-2010, 03:45 AM
Oh, btw, Richard Alpert freaking out made that episode. And he's just been following Jacob blindly this entire time? I would think he had some incentive.

well since jacob is dead richard can be free "out of chains"

LuHoo
02-17-2010, 03:46 AM
Oh, Ben admitting he murdered Locke was weird. I loved Frank's line "weirdest funeral I've ever been to," lol :p

Yes, and he just got done lying to Ilana about how Jacob died. Then he gets all honest about murdering John.

I liked how Ben spoke about John being a believer and a man of faith. Soon after in the AR, John says he doesn't believe in miracles and comes to a seemingly healthy acceptance of his disability.

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:46 AM
Clearly the "inside joke" MIB/Locke made was that white was no longer part of the balance.

Right, that's what I meant. Suggests fLocke may have been declaring himself the "bad guy" for all those debating whether Jacob and fLocke are good or bad.

sluhser589
02-17-2010, 03:46 AM
And it says Chang too!

I also see Domingo and Mattingly but idk what they'd mean.

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:47 AM
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Valenzetti_Equation


Is the Valenzetti Equation official LOST canon or just ARG material?

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:47 AM
And it says Chang too!

I also see Domingo and Mattingly but idk what they'd mean.

Obviously Don Mattingly was once a candidate.
:p

PirateGuy 815
02-17-2010, 03:47 AM
We need HD screencaps of the cave ASAP!!!

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:48 AM
And it says Chang too!

I also see Domingo and Mattingly but idk what they'd mean.

Maybe Miles Chang?

sluhser589
02-17-2010, 03:49 AM
And holy schmoles! There's a ZKI next to Sawyer's name. Radzinzki?

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:49 AM
I think I saw the crossed-off name "DOMINGO" next to a number that looked like it was in the two-hundreds.

Also, if Gary Troupe was a candidate prior to his death, is there really anything special about being chosen for that gig? Huh? What? I'm sure being a follower of Lost I should know the Domingo reference, but I don't. Lemme wiki it... nope nothing definitive there. So not following. I'm so hoping DHARMA and Gary Troup, Widmore, Hanso, et al play a major role and and wrapped up in this story before it ends... But I'm not getting the reference.

sluhser589
02-17-2010, 03:49 AM
Maybe Miles Chang?

Pierre Chang.........

swhunter
02-17-2010, 03:50 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:50 AM
Miles' last name is Straume. Marvin Candle/Wickmund/whatever is Pierre Chang.

sluhser589
02-17-2010, 03:51 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.

Well I think the idea is there is no Jacob in the AR so for Locke to exist his dad couldn't of killed him.

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:51 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.

Yes.
I wonder how Locke became paralyzed in this version?
Always - from birth?
Or some other way perhaps.
But not by being shoved out a window by his father, and he didn't have his kidney stolen and then go nuts obsessing over his dad and lose Helen. A lot is changed in this reality.

RSMFields
02-17-2010, 03:51 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.

If you look at John's desk he also has a picture of him with his dad, they look pretty happy together.

Another thought: Why is Ben in the AR, if the island sank in 1977. He should be dead. I think this is proof the thing that causes the AR has not happened yet.

m8o
02-17-2010, 03:52 AM
Is the Valenzetti Equation official LOST canon or just ARG material? I still don't know myself. It goes back and forth. I think the only thing I know for sure is parts of it are? I would hate having two completely unrelated story threads to all this.

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:53 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.

Yes, I noticed this too and just thought, though I can't remember anything, that Helen didn't yet know the story of John's diabolical father. But your idea is much better ... that in this timeline their relationship will be much different.

LoRab
02-17-2010, 03:54 AM
Obviously Don Mattingly was once a candidate.
:p

And Carl Yastrzemski. I'm telling you, at the end of the day, the show is about the Yankees vs the Sox.

I'm sure without much effort, we could come up with players from the 2 teams for each of the numbers (and probably just with retired numbers, tbh). :p

deathwish
02-17-2010, 03:55 AM
Another thought: Why is Ben in the AR, if the island sank in 1977. He should be dead. I think this is proof the thing that causes the AR has not happened yet.

Not necessarily. We don't know how many things in the ALT are different. Ben may have never even came to the Island in the ALT. Same with Ethan.

Shurock
02-17-2010, 03:55 AM
Does anyone see a biblical connection to the temptation of Sawyer occurring in a cave?

Team Linus
02-17-2010, 03:55 AM
Miles' last name is Straume. Marvin Candle/Wickmund/whatever is Pierre Chang.

But is this his birth name? Jacob clearly doesn't care for nicknames, as he calls Sawyer Ford. Maybe Miles' name was changed so he would never know the identity of his father?

hauckie91
02-17-2010, 03:56 AM
why couldn't "Kwon" refer to Ji Yeon? Afterall, Jacob did touch both Sun and Jin.... and Ji Yeon is a combination of the both of them.

pgaff
02-17-2010, 03:56 AM
see my post about "the myth of the cave" below!...similar reference

LuHoo
02-17-2010, 03:56 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.

good catch

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:57 AM
But is this his birth name? Jacob clearly doesn't care for nicknames, as he calls Sawyer Ford. Maybe Miles' name was changed so he would never know the identity of his father?

Chang=Chang
Why do you think it's Miles and not Pierre? Pierre's name is Chang. He was brought to the island as well.

swhunter
02-17-2010, 03:57 AM
why couldn't "Kwon" refer to Ji Yeon? Afterall, Jacob did touch both Sun and Jin.... and Ji Yeon is a combination of the both of them.

Ah, excellent point. Hadn't considered that.

bongzilla
02-17-2010, 03:58 AM
why couldn't "Kwon" refer to Ji Yeon? Afterall, Jacob did touch both Sun and Jin.... and Ji Yeon is a combination of the both of them.

Could also be Jin's old man, for what that gets us.

DriveShaftSucks
02-17-2010, 03:58 AM
Flocke's convo with the kid:

Boy: You know the rules. You can't kill him.
Flocke: Don't tell me what I can't do.
(boy shakes head & leaves)
Flocke: Don't tell me what I can't do!F

This struck me as very strange. MIB was suddenly acting very much like Locke.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 03:59 AM
And Carl Yastrzemski. I'm telling you, at the end of the day, the show is about the Yankees vs the Sox.

I'm sure without much effort, we could come up with players from the 2 teams for each of the numbers (and probably just with retired numbers, tbh). :p

OMG, did you notice from "What Kate Does" the scene where Dogen is playing with a baseball?? You may be onto something. ;)

O, and if it is all about the best rivalry in sports history, then we all know how it will end... ;)

Pene
02-17-2010, 03:59 AM
Could also be Jin's old man, for what that gets us.

:D Very true.

Hart
02-17-2010, 03:59 AM
Could also be Jin's old man, for what that gets us.

Speaking of which, is Paik Industries out of the picture now or are Widmore, Paik and other off-Islanders going to have to join forces to defeat a freed MiB:eek:?

Pene
02-17-2010, 04:00 AM
OMG, did you notice from "What Kate Does" the scene where Dogen is playing with a baseball?? You may be onto something. ;)

O, and if it is all about the best rivalry in sports history, then we all know how it will end... ;)

Jack in shark tank - World Series... need I say more?

purplejesus
02-17-2010, 04:00 AM
Desmond claimed he was saving the world by pushing the button, the one time he didnt push it, 815 crashed, and that set into motion the end of the world, the #'s/people landed on the island, and now if one of them lets smokey off the island, the Valenzetti/Doomsday equation comes true.

oconn1st
02-17-2010, 04:00 AM
...they are candidates to impregnate the island...cause the island really really wants to have little baby islands....so they are all male....and it gets very jealous of pregnante people on the island...thats why people cant have babies...and it only let claire have it cause the island knew it would be a boy and it thought it could be another candidate...and that hole in the ground by the temple is its vagina....

so the men...replace jacob...turn into a white smoke monster (semen)
and then have to journey into the center of the island and fertalize the egg (pocket of energy)

The flashes = orgasms and because the island get's so lonely, it masturbates sometimes...the donkey wheel is really a sex toy...

imrational
02-17-2010, 04:00 AM
How does the list of cave names apply to Sayid and the danger to everyone if he died?

Does that imply that Sayid was high on the list to be the replacement?

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:01 AM
This struck me as very strange. MIB was suddenly acting very much like Locke.

Yeah, I asked myself that question: MiB looks like Locke, but why would he say "Don't tell me what I can't do" which, I think, has clearly become a trademark of John's? Is there some Locke in fLocke?

ben2church
02-17-2010, 04:03 AM
Don't know if you saw the pop-up episode just before tonight's episode (I usually can't stand them), but it was interesting that they mentioned the game of Backgammen, and how Locke was playing that in the pilot (I believe). That game is all black and white stones. They popped it up when Jack was being told about Claire being taken into the blackness. Very interesting they bring up that fact, and then have the balancing stones in this episode, don't you think?

imrational
02-17-2010, 04:03 AM
Desmond claimed he was saving the world by pushing the button, the one time he didnt push it, 815 crashed, and that set into motion the end of the world, the #'s/people landed on the island, and now if one of them lets smokey off the island, the Valenzetti/Doomsday equation comes true.

Yes, but Eloise said that the one thing of importance he does is to fail to push the button and hit the failsafe button instead!

I think that it's not so much as Smokey getting off the island, but rather if a LOSTIE meets and touches their AR doppleganger, then THAT will end everything and really free Smokey.

minimicrocosm
02-17-2010, 04:04 AM
Why are some people saying that they are bothered by seeing Ben in the AR and thinking that he would have sank with the island?!?

This is the AR, nothing has to be the same as it was in the first reality we were introduced to. Ben doesn't even have to have ever been to the island in the AR. He could be living a completely different life.

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:04 AM
Desmond claimed he was saving the world by pushing the button, the one time he didnt push it, 815 crashed, and that set into motion the end of the world, the #'s/people landed on the island, and now if one of them lets smokey off the island, the Valenzetti/Doomsday equation comes true.

Certainly could be, but I don't get the impression that Desmond had any clue of the real machinations going down on the Island ... that he has no concept of the MiB/Jacob deal. Seems like he was just doing what he'd been told to do ... ignorantly. Could be wrong though.

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:05 AM
...they are candidates to impregnate the island...cause the island really really wants to have little baby islands....so they are all male....and it gets very jealous of pregnante people on the island...thats why people cant have babies...and it only let claire have it cause the island knew it would be a boy and it thought it could be another candidate...and that hole in the ground by the temple is its vagina....

so the men...replace jacob...turn into a white smoke monster (semen)
and then have to journey into the center of the island and fertalize the egg (pocket of energy)

The flashes = orgasms and because the island get's so lonely, it masturbates sometimes...the donkey wheel is really a sex toy...

best theory evar

themoonechoes
02-17-2010, 04:05 AM
Wow, I'm not sure if this episode was amazing simply because it was amazing or because it followed "What Kate Does" which was...very disappointing.

Someone mentioned that dead Jacob told Hurley that Jin couldn't see him, so I'm voting that 42 - Kwon is Sun. But that only follows if the blond kid in the jungle is Jacob. It could be Aaron, but I have a hard time believing that Aaron could appear that old at this point in 2007.

I'm even more convinced that the AR is because Jacob is dead and/or MIB got off the island and was able to destroy it (or put it under water at the very least).

I think one of the key points going forward is that Flocke told Saywer that the only way to get off the island is to get everyone together. I believe he means the candidates. so I think we are going to see a lot of manipulating and side flipping. I think if MIB gets all the candidates together and they get off the island, then AR is the true reality. Since MIB hasn't accomplished this yet, we are in limbo, thus the island reality and AR.

So if Locke is dead and Jarrah is "claimed", does the title "substitute" come into play with Jin and Kate? Who all does MIB need to "get together" to be free?

Pene
02-17-2010, 04:08 AM
This is the AR, nothing has to be the same as it was in the first reality we were introduced to. Ben doesn't even have to have ever been to the island in the AR. He could be living a completely different life.

I believe the thinking behind this is that the bomb was detonated in 1977, so anything prior to 1977 would be the same, but then a new reality split off as well.

CommMajor101
02-17-2010, 04:08 AM
Obviously James has been served a heaping pile of despair the last few episodes so that he would be all "hell yeah" about leaving the island. Thoughts on why fLocke needs a Lostie, or James in particular, to get off the island?

I was just thinking, maybe fLocke needs a new vessel, he can take over a dead body, right? Maybe he needs a new body off the island, someone without a lot of responsibilities, someone without a lot of ties, maybe fLocke is going to try to be fSawyer off the island - I dunno - just a random idea - haha

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:09 AM
It's probably minutiae, but if the kid's too old to be Aaron, why would it be ok for him to be Jacob? Why would Jacob appear as a 10 or so year old? Why wouldn't he be a baby or just show up as an adult?

Dexter Stratton
02-17-2010, 04:09 AM
Noticed a small ALT detail: when Helen is frustrated with the wedding plans she suggest running off with her parents and his father, which suggests that his paralysis is not because of his father trying to kill him. In which case, I wonder what does?

themoonechoes
02-17-2010, 04:10 AM
It's probably minutiae, but if the kid's too old to be Aaron, why would it be ok for him to be Jacob? Why would Jacob appear as a 10 or so year old? Why wouldn't he be a baby or just show up as an adult?

Thats a good question, but maybe it's because Jacob is dead and or reborn and Aaron is alive?

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:11 AM
I believe the thinking behind this is that the bomb was detonated in 1977, so anything prior to 1977 would be the same, but then a new reality split off as well.

but i think the idea is that the island being under water doesn't seem to necessarily correspond to the bomb going off. in fact, i think we know that the island wasn't under water following the bomb going off so that suggests it happened later ... somewhere within a 30 or so year time period.

oconn1st
02-17-2010, 04:13 AM
how interesting would it be if the kwon on the ceiling refers to ji yeon

Tarya
02-17-2010, 04:13 AM
It was also great seeing Locke and Helen happily together. Did anyone else notice, though, that when she proposed eloping, she said, "We'll get my parents and YOUR DAD and just go"? Seems that perhaps the relationship between John and his father is different in this parallel storyline.
So Cooper isn't a douche on the other timeline which probably means that he didn't con Sawyer's dad either? :confused:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/userpics/10425/normal_604-21.jpg

purplejesus
02-17-2010, 04:14 AM
Certainly could be, but I don't get the impression that Desmond had any clue of the real machinations going down on the Island ... that he has no concept of the MiB/Jacob deal. Seems like he was just doing what he'd been told to do ... ignorantly. Could be wrong though.

yes, but Desmond was told that he was saving the island by Kelvin...I dont think Desmond has any idea about MiB/Jacob, but the important thing is that he was saving the world by pushing the button...when he missed hitting it, the world didnt end, but the plane crashed...him not hitting the button was just a string of things that will lead to the end of the world

-Dont hit button
-815 crashes
-Sawyer meets Smokey
-Sawyer lets Smokey of the island or (as imrational said) the lostie touches the AR to end the world
-End of the world

LoRab
02-17-2010, 04:14 AM
OMG, did you notice from "What Kate Does" the scene where Dogen is playing with a baseball?? You may be onto something. ;)

O, and if it is all about the best rivalry in sports history, then we all know how it will end... ;)

*nods*

And why else would Ben have the 04 World Series on tape?

And any debate about who would win the rivalry should really be in OT, not here.

go sox!

aranjan
02-17-2010, 04:14 AM
Best episode of the season, it was great to see Ben be a man and show respect for Locke and for the first time since his daughter's death to show true emotion. Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson delivered great performances and while this alternative timeline continues to confuse me the story in it got much better with this episode. Easily best episode of S6!

Domaq
02-17-2010, 04:15 AM
I think the candidates are to replace Flocke not Jacob.

Flocke knew Richard when he was in chains and Richard asked, "Is it really you" which seems to indicate that Richard knew Flocke in his previous form.

If Richard and Flocke were from the Black Rock, maybe they were candidates too...to replace the MiB.

Jacob doesn't need replacing, he has already risen from the ashes as the young boy. Flocke wants to go home, but can't go until he gets a replacement (or Jacob chooses a replacement). There has to be a MiB, good must be balanced by bad, free will has to be balanced by destiny just as the white and black rocks were in balance in the cave.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 04:20 AM
OK, I'm thinking there is significance to the cave (duh), but not just because of the numbers/names. There is the Allegory of the Cave (Plato) in which some people were in chains. Their perception of reality was really just the shadows on the wall and they didn't know life as it really was outside of the cave. Even when one escapes and comes back to tell them, they still don't believe it because they cannot conceive of a reality other than the one they know.

Surely this is all one big metaphor for the show, no? Could this indicate that Ben/Richard (who we've been told several times already was in chains) do not accurately perceive reality? Could it mean Flocke does not also (as he said he was trapped for so long)? Could it be as It All Started With Brando suggests that there is a third spiritual being? Or, just a 3rd option? Maybe they all believe they are trying to achieve something that isn't really even there?

I can't decide if I think it is all just a vague philosophical reference or more meaningful. I think it must be as "Jacob's Ladder" led to the cave. So, maybe this is setting us up for an ending where everyone has been fooled. God, I kind of hope not.

aranjan
02-17-2010, 04:20 AM
I think the candidates are to replace Flocke not Jacob.

Flocke knew Richard when he was in chains and Richard asked, "Is it really you" which seems to indicate that Richard knew Flocke in his previous form.

If Richard and Flocke were from the Black Rock, maybe they were candidates too...to replace the MiB.

Jacob doesn't need replacing, he has already risen from the ashes as the young boy. Flocke wants to go home, but can't go until he gets a replacement (or Jacob chooses a replacement). There has to be a MiB, good must be balanced by bad, free will has to be balanced by destiny just as the white and black rocks were in balance in the cave.

Flocke was not on the Black Rock we saw him watch in come to the Island.

I don't think Flocke is completely evil either. Lost is not a show of extremes or absolutes. There is always some grey area as there is in life and that is why I love Lost, unlike most shows, it doesn't adhere to the idea of extremes. In the show with John and Jack there was Science vs Faith and we saw how both philosophies applied at different times and Jack and Locke have been right on different occasions. I don't know that is what I see though.

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 04:23 AM
I think the candidates are to replace Flocke not Jacob.

Flocke knew Richard when he was in chains and Richard asked, "Is it really you" which seems to indicate that Richard knew Flocke in his previous form.

If Richard and Flocke were from the Black Rock, maybe they were candidates too...to replace the MiB.

Jacob doesn't need replacing, he has already risen from the ashes as the young boy. Flocke wants to go home, but can't go until he gets a replacement (or Jacob chooses a replacement). There has to be a MiB, good must be balanced by bad, free will has to be balanced by destiny just as the white and black rocks were in balance in the cave.

I think the candidates are potentials to replace either one, maybe. You know, the timeless yin/yang, light/dark thing. The battle is endless, but maybe always needs individuals willing to wage it.

sluhser589
02-17-2010, 04:23 AM
Am I making this up in my mind or have they used Jacob's cave as an establishing shot before?

Zorba the bomb
02-17-2010, 04:23 AM
so initial thoughts:
I take it walt was a candidate to be jacob's replacement
Why did he need replacing?
So smokey is bound to lockes form?
Why?
Is richard bound in a similar manner?
Ben as a teacher- wow

What an episode
Didnt hate what kate does like some people but this one was spectacular!!!!!!

swiss473
02-17-2010, 04:23 AM
Why does Jacob have to write all these names on some wall in a cave far away from the foot? Why couldn't he just jot them down on a piece of paper like he did with the list inside the ankh?

Why did he have his foot dwelling and this cave?

Besides, he's Jacob, why would he have to write their names down at all. He should be able to remember them pretty easily.

And why does Jacob need to keep bring groups to the island? Couldn't he know ahead of time who would be able to take over for him?

And why the Losties? They don't seem to be special in any way? Are we suppose dto believe that someone like Hurley, a 20 something guy from LA, is going to be the next Jacob, a god-like figure who travels through time and space and lives in an Ancient Egyptian statue?

purplejesus
02-17-2010, 04:25 AM
that cave wasnt Jacobs cave, why would Jacob need a cave if he already had a cabin and a statue foot? in the end of season 5 we see MiB meeting up with Jacob at the foot, so MiB didnt live with Jacob, MiB lives in that cave

aranjan
02-17-2010, 04:25 AM
This young boy thing is confusing, if it is Jacob, which I assume he is, then why is he a kid and not an adult like he was in front of Hugo?

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:26 AM
OK, I'm thinking there is significance to the cave (duh), but not just because of the numbers/names. There is the Allegory of the Cave (Plato) in which some people were in chains. Their perception of reality was really just the shadows on the wall and they didn't know life as it really was outside of the cave. Even when one escapes and comes back to tell them, they still don't believe it because they cannot conceive of a reality other than the one they know.

Surely this is all one big metaphor for the show, no? Could this indicate that Ben/Richard (who we've been told several times already was in chains) do not accurately perceive reality? Could it mean Flocke does not also (as he said he was trapped for so long)? Could it be as It All Started With Brando suggests that there is a third spiritual being? Or, just a 3rd option? Maybe they all believe they are trying to achieve something that isn't really even there?

I can't decide if I think it is all just a vague philosophical reference or more meaningful. I think it must be as "Jacob's Ladder" led to the cave. So, maybe this is setting us up for an ending where everyone has been fooled. God, I kind of hope not.

well, i think without a doubt that any or all of what you say is valid and i'm definitely getting the feeling that no one knows anything and they're all fighting against an illusion. we thought ben was the mastermind and ben doesn't really seem to know jack. could be wrong, but richard seems like a lost little girl. perhaps MiB and Jacob don't even know what they're fighting about. though it seems they do, i think there is an element of hopelessness that you describe.

Iamverylost
02-17-2010, 04:26 AM
I think the little boy is either jacob, aaron, or a reincarnation of jacob...although a "new jacob" ( as in a new island protector, to take over jacob's job) is one of the candidates, being one of the losties.

Ive had some thoughts that this whole thing is a big game between Smokey and Jacob..and so that little boy could have been the heart of the island..because it was reminding smokey about the rules.

Also, smokey told sawyer that he has been trapped for a very very long time..which i was thinking even before this episode that jacob was keeping smokey prisoner on the island sorta say.

And it's def. interesting that smokey said that he was once a human being..possibly the man in black on the beach that we saw in the S5 finale.

helpmeimlost
02-17-2010, 04:29 AM
Here are some screens of the cave scene:

hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/231/95149524.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5834/11577669.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5464/87035888.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1451/86781984.jpg
hxxp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4218/87302716.jpg
hxxp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7817/21945863.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2026/61994582.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7658/80597886.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6409/68446807.jpg
hxxp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8999/65314512.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/287/28303424.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/287/28303424.jpg

allisonkeiko
02-17-2010, 04:35 AM
What about Jacob being reborn, as a pheonix does after it dies.

from the wikipedia page it says:
"It has a 500 to 1,000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again."
Jacob lived for a long time, he died in ashes, maybe this blonde boy is the same Jacob, but brought back to life.

m8o
02-17-2010, 04:37 AM
So Cooper isn't a douche on the other timeline which probably means that he didn't con Sawyer's dad either? :confused:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/userpics/10425/normal_604-21.jpg Glad to see this. I missed it during the show (was eating). Also, it sure seems like John is on his own two feet there! :o

But you know, I'd like to point-out to the peanut gallery that that's exactly how he and his dad looked together while John was being con'ed, when dad was teaching John how to hunt.

...it's entirely possible his dad is still a con artist and a prick, John just hasn't become wise to it and wasn't directly screwed by his dad. Just say'n...

Iamverylost
02-17-2010, 04:38 AM
Yes, but Eloise said that the one thing of importance he does is to fail to push the button and hit the failsafe button instead!

I think that it's not so much as Smokey getting off the island, but rather if a LOSTIE meets and touches their AR doppleganger, then THAT will end everything and really free Smokey.


haha you are on to something there..what if the alternate realities could meet..or that someone from one reality could bounce over to the other reality some how. like desmund for instance..because the "rules" dont apply to him.(whichever those rules are, we dont exactly know)

aranjan
02-17-2010, 04:38 AM
What about Jacob being reborn, as a pheonix does after it dies.

from the wikipedia page it says:
"It has a 500 to 1,000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again."
Jacob lived for a long time, he died in ashes, maybe this blonde boy is the same Jacob, but brought back to life.

At first I thought that is a crazy idea, but it could very well be that way as the boy said you cannot kill him or something similar to that and we saw Llana taking ashes perhaps to signal this. This is why Flocke looked so scared and did not answer Sawyer when he said did you find the kid, by responding "what kid"

m8o
02-17-2010, 04:39 AM
as links

Here are some screens of the cave scene:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/231/95149524.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5834/11577669.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5464/87035888.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1451/86781984.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4218/87302716.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7817/21945863.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2026/61994582.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7658/80597886.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6409/68446807.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8999/65314512.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/287/28303424.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/287/28303424.jpg

helpmeimlost
02-17-2010, 04:40 AM
Thanks. Sorry but couldn't post links yet.


as links

Hart
02-17-2010, 04:41 AM
Here are some screens of the cave scene:

hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/231/95149524.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5834/11577669.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5464/87035888.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1451/86781984.jpg
hxxp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4218/87302716.jpg
hxxp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7817/21945863.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2026/61994582.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7658/80597886.jpg
hxxp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6409/68446807.jpg
hxxp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8999/65314512.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/287/28303424.jpg
hxxp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/287/28303424.jpg

just caught one i haven't seen mentioned yet ... burke (juliet).

m8o
02-17-2010, 04:44 AM
Thanks. Sorry but couldn't post links yet.I knew you couldn't; thought I'd help out as you helped us out. ;)

Tarya
02-17-2010, 04:44 AM
Glad to see this. I missed it during the show (was eating). Also, it sure seems like John is on his own two feet there! :o

But you know, I'd like to point-out to the peanut gallery that that's exactly how he and his dad looked together while John was being con'ed, when dad was teaching John how to hunt.

...it's entirely possible his dad is still a con artist and a prick, John just hasn't become wise to it and wasn't directly screwed by his dad. Just say'n...
Could be..but Sawyer didn't seem an angry man on the plane this time around. I think his life will be completely different with both his parents alive. I guess we'll have to wait till Sawyer's epi to find out :)

Becks45
02-17-2010, 04:47 AM
Did they ever say he was a candidate? I thought Brahm or whatever his name was merely curious as to why Ilana was keeping Lapidus around and threw that out as a possible explanation. I don't think they ever said it was anything definite.

Perhaps candidacy has to do with one's ability to get to the island...and survive.....repeatedly.

*still reeling*

Gumbyhoss
02-17-2010, 04:51 AM
Am I missing something huge here or did they walk Locke's body from the statue to the graveyard on the original beach in one afternoon? Did the entire cast and crew just miss that?

Hugo Rocks
02-17-2010, 04:51 AM
that cave wasnt Jacobs cave, why would Jacob need a cave if he already had a cabin and a statue foot? in the end of season 5 we see MiB meeting up with Jacob at the foot, so MiB didnt live with Jacob, MiB lives in that cave

Not sure that was Jacob's cabin. At this point, I sincerely doubt it was. I'm thinking it was more likely MIB's cabin as the Christian and Claire (who has been infected) were both there. Ben took his orders from Jacob there, but never actually saw him. Maybe he thought it was Jacob, but was not. Maybe there is a third entity (as others have suggested).

Also, while I'm not entirely sure, I think the cave WAS Jacob's. There was a clear reference to Jacob's Ladder. Jacob sought out each of the candidates. As MIB explained it, we (the audience) were shown flashbacks to the moments of Jacob's influence in their lives. Even just the inside joke of throwing away the stone -if it was his own cave (MiB), it wouldn't have made much sense.

There is the possibility it belonged to a 3rd entity. But who that might be...???:confused:

essential
02-17-2010, 04:52 AM
I think kid=jacob most likely. At first I thought Aaron, then realized by "you can't kill him" he was referring to Richard. If he were referring to Jacob (which I realize now would be dumb) it'd make sense for him to Aaron - Jacob's kooky but he doesn't refer to himself in the 3rd person that I've noticed.

When he said, "you can't kill him," I assumed he meant Sawyer.

Also, why didn't FLocke remember the kid when Sawyer asked him if he caught up with the kid, FLocke responds, "what kid?"

Fail_Safe
02-17-2010, 04:57 AM
Wow great episode but I'm still confused as to where the hell this is leading. Was that little boy Jacob, Aaron or someone else entirely? When he said 'you can't kill him' was he talking about richard, sawyer, possibly aaron or someone else entirely? Was that MIB's oceanside retreat or Jacobs? Why can't MIB leave without Sawyer and if all he needed was a Lostie why hasn't he tried this before? Is Jacob dying his loophole, opening the window of opportunity for him to leave? How come Iliana knows more than Richard? How can MIB offer Jacobs job to Sawyer if there are so many possible canidates? Is Jacob reincarnated as Aaron and the MIB must kill Jacob on and off the island to succeed in ending it all? What do the numbers really mean? What, where, when, how? Where are the answers!!!!!!!!!!!

Becks45
02-17-2010, 04:58 AM
Oh, and Ilana taking Jacob's ashes? Does this suggest that the ash that keeps MIB out is former Jacobs? Or Jacob candidates?


Totally! I firmly believe this has same basic story has happened again and again...and the ash is the remains of jacob each time he burns.

slbailey1
02-17-2010, 05:01 AM
Obviously James has been served a heaping pile of despair the last few episodes so that he would be all "hell yeah" about leaving the island. Thoughts on why fLocke needs a Lostie, or James in particular, to get off the island?

If fLocke statement that he was once a man is true, then only true humans can leave the island. So, to leave the island, fLocke needs someone to take on the duties of the "dark or black" entity. James is fLocke candidate or substitute.

randy nations
02-17-2010, 05:02 AM
*nods*

And why else would Ben have the 04 World Series on tape?

And any debate about who would win the rivalry should really be in OT, not here.

go sox!

Baseball….nei,
Cricket (as confusing and drawn out as Lost)…a higher probability

David Mattingly plays cricket in the Indian Pemier League ;)

In the 1986 Test between England and New Zealand at Lords, England used 4 different wicketkeepers due to injury to their original wicketkeeper. The substitute may also act as a runner when the injured or ill player is batting, but may not bat himself. A player may bat, bowl and field even if he has had a substitute for part of the game. If a player has a runner, he may be given out if either he or his runner transgresses the rules.

The rules for substitutes all appear in Law 2 of the Laws of cricket.

aranjan
02-17-2010, 05:04 AM
If fLocke statement that he was once a man is true, then only true humans can leave the island. So, to leave the island, fLocke needs someone to take on the duties of the "dark or black" entity. James is fLocke candidate or substitute.

Yet Flocke was convincing Sawyer that Jacob had ruined his life by leading him to the island and that he could get off the island, but he never went further with that...

helpmeimlost
02-17-2010, 05:04 AM
Few more screenshots from the cave scene:

hxxp://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8162/81483783.jpg
hxxp://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8193/47814363.jpg
hxxp://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1636/16853155.jpg
hxxp://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3287/65794440.jpg
hxxp://img693.imageshack.us/img693/694/52742361.jpg

m8o
02-17-2010, 05:05 AM
btw, a bit out of left field, but do we all recall that Sawyer also saw Kate's horse? He's "space-ial" too. ;)

m8o
02-17-2010, 05:06 AM
Few more screenshots from the cave scene:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8162/81483783.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8193/47814363.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1636/16853155.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3287/65794440.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/694/52742361.jpg
thumbs up

...so what do we know from this? Not for nothing, but that everyone's got a name associated with a number still tells me little. It in itself is a curiosity... I'd hardly call it an answer!

aranjan
02-17-2010, 05:08 AM
btw, a bit out of left field, but do we all recall that Sawyer also saw Kate's horse? He's "space-ial" too. ;)

lol that is true and interesting. Both Flocke and Kate seemed surprised that he saw there visions.

Hart
02-17-2010, 05:13 AM
If fLocke statement that he was once a man is true, then only true humans can leave the island. So, to leave the island, fLocke needs someone to take on the duties of the "dark or black" entity. James is fLocke candidate or substitute.

boy, that sounds exactly right to me. grieving, angry sawyer will totally be the new MiB. any chance jack could somehow take on the jacob role and then we'd have an even bigger, epic triangle for kate to angst in.

but i do think this makes a lot of sense. in his current state (or the majority of his previous ones for that matter), james would relish taking on the bad guy role. he's mad at the world, the island and jack anyway. what else is their to live for?

TG Chicago
02-17-2010, 05:18 AM
Why does Jacob have to write all these names on some wall in a cave far away from the foot? Why couldn't he just jot them down on a piece of paper like he did with the list inside the ankh?

Why did he have his foot dwelling and this cave?

Besides, he's Jacob, why would he have to write their names down at all. He should be able to remember them pretty easily.
We don't know that that was actually Jacob's cave. MIB said it was, but who knows? Maybe it's MIB's cave, and that's where he keeps track of all of Jacob's maneuverings. MIB crossed Locke's name out. Why bother doing that if it's the list of a dead guy?

cjnelson24
02-17-2010, 05:20 AM
Don't know if it has been mentioned, but the corresponding numbers could be seats on the plane cuz I'm almost positive Jack was in seat 23 and he was number 23 in the cave.

LeBron James
02-17-2010, 05:22 AM
Don't know if it has been mentioned, but the corresponding numbers could be seats on the plane cuz I'm almost positive Jack was in seat 23 and he was number 23 in the cave.

Locke was number 4 and he was maybe 2 rows away from Jack on the plane. Hurly was 8 and he was more than 2 rows away from Locke, it just doesn't work out IMO.

Hart
02-17-2010, 05:24 AM
Don't know if it has been mentioned, but the corresponding numbers could be seats on the plane cuz I'm almost positive Jack was in seat 23 and he was number 23 in the cave.

jack, rose and bernard were on row 23. ana lucia's row was a number. the rest, i think, were not.

Becks45
02-17-2010, 05:24 AM
I think the candidates are to replace Flocke not Jacob.

This This This This This. He's trapped there by Jacob...as a security system to protect the island. The candidates are being brought there to protect the island. He was manipulated, by Jacob, into being brought to the island and somehow convinced to be the smoke monster.

slbailey1
02-17-2010, 05:25 AM
I now beleive that
1. Adam and Eve are the new "Jacob" and "MIB".
2. the the Alt-reality is showing the progress that Jacob is talking about.
3. the alt-reality will become THE reality.
4. the actions of the people on the island will cause the island to sink, allowing the alt-reality to become THE reality.
5. sometime in the future of the new reality, the island will riase, the losties that are Adam and Eve will take on their roles as "Jacob" and "MIB", and everything will start all over again with different players being drawn to the island.

Iamverylost
02-17-2010, 05:28 AM
that was awesome..richard basically ran into the bushes like a little girl..LOL

i believe that it really was jacob's cave..jacob has a history of making lists of people..

it could be aaron...think of all the time traveling that has been done..it is def. possible..and i had thought that the little boy was a 3rd spirit..like it was the spirit of the island..which is in control of everything. and that's why it reminded smokey of the "rules".
maybe the kid in the jungle was referring to sawyer when he said "you cant kill him".

maybe smokey can kill people once they are scratched off the list!

it seems like smokey new the little boy..becuase he freaked out when he saw him the first time and almost got scared.

So i am thinking after hearing iylana say that "smokey" is stuck in locke's image (because ben asked her if smokey would just appear as someone else) then christian shephard may not be smokey..because fake locke was on the beach at the same time that sun and lapedis went to dharmaville to look for jin and christian shephard was in one of the houses..so christian shephard may not be smokey..than who the heck is he.

cjnelson24
02-17-2010, 05:31 AM
I now beleive that
1. Adam and Eve are the new "Jacob" and "MIB".
2. the the Alt-reality is showing the progress that Jacob is talking about.
3. the alt-reality will become THE reality.
4. the actions of the people on the island will cause the island to sink, allowing the alt-reality to become THE reality.
5. sometime in the future of the new reality, the island will riase, the losties that are Adam and Eve will take on their roles as "Jacob" and "MIB", and everything will start all over again with different players being drawn to the island.

1. Who would be the female because I believe Kwon on the cave refers to Jin as a candidate?
2. Perhaps
3. Agree
4. Perhaps
5. Kind of a reach.

aranjan
02-17-2010, 05:45 AM
that was awesome..richard basically ran into the bushes like a little girl..LOL

i believe that it really was jacob's cave..jacob has a history of making lists of people..

it could be aaron...think of all the time traveling that has been done..it is def. possible..and i had thought that the little boy was a 3rd spirit..like it was the spirit of the island..which is in control of everything. and that's why it reminded smokey of the "rules".
maybe the kid in the jungle was referring to sawyer when he said "you cant kill him".

maybe smokey can kill people once they are scratched off the list!

it seems like smokey new the little boy..becuase he freaked out when he saw him the first time and almost got scared.

So i am thinking after hearing iylana say that "smokey" is stuck in locke's image (because ben asked her if smokey would just appear as someone else) then christian shephard may not be smokey..because fake locke was on the beach at the same time that sun and lapedis went to dharmaville to look for jin and christian shephard was in one of the houses..so christian shephard may not be smokey..than who the heck is he.

Yeah that is something I want solved. I wanna know how Christian is on the island alive, I kept thinking smokey, but other things are pointing away from that, plus in a deleted scene he was alive after the plane crash and telling the dog Vincent to find his son and that jack "had a lot of work to do". I think there is a lot more to Christian than we think and we will find out his history has some connection to the island.