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REDSHIRT FOREVER
05-11-2010, 05:16 PM
This thread is for discussion of the May 11th episode: "Across The Sea".

Please see the 6x15 In-show Analysis & Chat thread for general "excitement" comments made during the airing.

For more information on this episode, please visit the Across The Sea page on the Wiki (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Across_the_Sea) dedicated to this episode.

Please do not post ANY spoilers in this thread without marking them with the spoiler tags.
This includes any information from Promos - Ads - Trailers that are shown after the episode or at any other time.

For more information on what we consider a spoiler here, please see Lostpedia Forum Spoiler Policy. (http://forum.lostpedia.com/showthread.php?t=41229)

Thanks and enjoy! :D

gnosis
05-12-2010, 03:21 AM
First half was incredibly lame, with awful acting and piss poor dialogue. Once Jacob and his brother grew up it was a bit better. But still very frustrating that the "answers" we're being given are barely answers at all. Some examples:

* There's a magic light, but what is it?
* Getting thrown in to the light made Jacob's brother turn in to a smoke monster... um.. but why?
* How did Jacob's mother know what she knows about the light and protecting it?
* Is she actually just as clueless about it as Jacob?
* Was she just crazy?
* Where did she get the power to bury the FDW, kill all those people, and make Jacob immortal?
* How does controlling the water and the light with the FDW let the MIB leave? Or does it even?
* Did hanging out with the other survivors of the shipwreck make the MIB evil or was he evil from the start?


This is almost the last episode and all we're being given are half-assed hints that seem so makeshift and threadbare it's ridiculous!

And the part with the mother looking in to the camera and talking about how every answer she gives will lead to just another question sounds like such a copout by the writers, who apparently can't think of any better explanation than "um... the magic light did it".

exaxlxpx12
05-12-2010, 03:30 AM
overall i give this episode a 6, it revealed some stuff, but it also caused more questions, why is the light thing there? who the hell told Crazy Mama she needs to protect it? who were those first Others and how the hell did Crazy Mama kill them all by herself? why is Jacob a pussy? is the only reason MiB is "evil" because he got thrown into the light? (looks that way to me, which is a shame because he seemed to be the only sane one there) i liked the way Adam and Eve were revealed, that why i gave it a 6 instead of a 5. i wish they had done this episode earlier in the season, at this stage in the game i want as much of my Losties as i can, i just didn't want an entire episode devoted to just Jacob/MiB/Crazy Mama. and really with not giving him a name??? now its just stupid, he is not some mystical creature, he just got thrown into some light hole.

m8o
05-12-2010, 03:31 AM
Well, for non-ship'ers, that's the last of it. No, we're not satisfied.

As I posted in another thread, what I've learned from Lost is the mystery surrounding all aspects of the mythology of Lost was orders of magnitude more engaging and greater that what the reality turned out to be.

At least in a week I can end it all in Room 23. ...I love loud music. ;)

Boyd
05-12-2010, 03:41 AM
overall i give this episode a 6, it revealed some stuff, but it also caused more questions, why is the light thing there? who the hell told Crazy Mama she needs to protect it? who were those first Others and how the hell did Crazy Mama kill them all by herself? why is Jacob a pussy? is the only reason MiB is "evil" because he got thrown into the light? (looks that way to me, which is a shame because he seemed to be the only sane one there) i liked the way Adam and Eve were revealed, that why i gave it a 6 instead of a 5. i wish they had done this episode earlier in the season, at this stage in the game i want as much of my Losties as i can, i just didn't want an entire episode devoted to just Jacob/MiB/Crazy Mama. and really with not giving him a name??? now its just stupid, he is not some mystical creature, he just got thrown into some light hole.

I'm pretty sure the original others were the people who shipwrecked with Jacob/MIBs real mother.

kayekaye1234
05-12-2010, 03:48 AM
It looked pretty clear to me that MIB was dead when he floated face down in the water to the light. Smoke monster is just imitating him as it does with all the other it has imitated, with knowledge from the dead one:
Alex, MIB, Christen, Locke
There were no answers, just more questions. But since Damon L. said the end will be in true "Lostian" style with more questions it doesn't surprise me.

busy site, keep getting knocked off.....

estaman
05-12-2010, 03:49 AM
In Summary...

Let me see if I have the episode right...we still don't know what MiB's real name is, but that's OK because the image that we've known as MiB (before he manifested as Christian Shepherd, spiders, John Locke, a horse, and who knows what else) isn't MiB at all. The real antagonist of the show is the black smoke which was originally released from the well of light which contains light/warmth/life of the kind that all people have inside them (fountain of youth anyone?) when Jacob threw the real MiB in. And the first dead body that Smokey incarnated as was MiB's. But Smokey's still bound by the rules between Jacob and MiB about not killing each other. And now that Jacob's dead, MiB is stuck in John Locke's form which must be another 'rule'.

Hmmm, I don't see what they couldn't at least have given us a name for the real MiB. The only real hint was the crazy lady saying thank you to MiB after he killed her as if she was just as trapped as everyone else.

Snowglobes
05-12-2010, 03:49 AM
I hate to say this, but I was disappointed by this ep. Maybe it was my own fault since I had such high expectations, I don't know. The mother said it all with the most telling piece of foreshadowing to ever take place in the whole series. "It will only lead to more questions."

georgiawarhol
05-12-2010, 03:50 AM
i definitely agree that i liked the way adam and eve were revealed. something about it gave me chills, not so much that we were learning who adam and eve were, but the way we saw jack, kate, and locke. i also agree that we didn't get a lot of answers, and actually just got a lot more questions. i liked the episode, but i really am more confused about the nature of jacob and mib's conflict than i was before. jacob was remorseful over killing his brother, or so it seemed, so why is he such an ass to him in the more recent times we've seen them together?

scott_burke
05-12-2010, 03:53 AM
i definitely agree that i liked the way adam and eve were revealed. something about it gave me chills, not so much that we were learning who adam and eve were, but the way we saw jack, kate, and locke. i also agree that we didn't get a lot of answers, and actually just got a lot more questions. i liked the episode, but i really am more confused about the nature of jacob and mib's conflict than i was before. jacob was remorseful over killing his brother, or so it seemed, so why is he such an ass to him in the more recent times we've seen them together?



Because Jacob was talking with the pillar of smoke in the recent times we've seen him (IE- "I want you kill you so badly"). The smoke monster was opened from Pandora's box.

Evil is released upon the island.

exaxlxpx12
05-12-2010, 03:53 AM
humm i actually forgot that MiB is dead. he was not the evil one, what became smoky is the true evil, antagonist of the show that we know. but i don't see why they can't kill each other??? no rules were ever explained to us. from what i saw there is no reason smoky can't kill Jacob. did i miss something?

Manus
05-12-2010, 03:54 AM
Jacob, MIB, and Crazy Druid Mom has to be the most dysfunctional family ever on TV.

Overall I liked the episode, I hope they fill in the blanks on the nature of the islands power a little more from a scientific point of view next week.

Strokedown
05-12-2010, 03:58 AM
First half was incredibly lame, with awful acting and piss poor dialogue. Once Jacob and his brother grew up it was a bit better. But still very frustrating that the "answers" we're being given are barely answers at all. Some examples:

* There's a magic light, but what is it?
* Getting thrown in to the light made Jacob's brother turn in to a smoke monster... um.. but why?
* How did Jacob's mother know what she knows about the light and protecting it?
* Is she actually just as clueless about it as Jacob?
* Was she just crazy?
* Where did she get the power to bury the FDW, kill all those people, and make Jacob immortal?
* How does controlling the water and the light with the FDW let the MIB leave? Or does it even?
* Did hanging out with the other survivors of the shipwreck make the MIB evil or was he evil from the start?


This is almost the last episode and all we're being given are half-assed hints that seem so makeshift and threadbare it's ridiculous!

And the part with the mother looking in to the camera and talking about how every answer she gives will lead to just another question sounds like such a copout by the writers, who apparently can't think of any better explanation than "um... the magic light did it".

I can answer some of those:

1.) The light is the essence of life/the island/the world, just like Jacob's mother said.

2.) You try to explain why MiB turned into Smokey when thrown into the light. We don't need a "midichlorian" explanation for that.

3.) Doesn't matter how she knew. All that matters is Jacob and MiB's struggle. As TPTB said, not everything will be answered, including the history of the island before Jacob and his brother.

4.) Again, doesn't matter.

5.) Maybe she was crazy, but I doubt it.

6.) I was thinking that maybe she was the smoke monster, and that by dying (just like Dogen said, without saying a word to her), she was no longer Smokey.

7.) We don't need a rational explanation for everything. Especially this. THe light is magic, maybe? It doesn't really matter.

8.) MiB wasn't evil. He just wanted to leave. By living with those people, he saw how evil they were, how evil the people were. And now, after who knows how many years, he's crazy about leaving, and is willing to kill any of what he believes to be evil people in order to do it.

A lot of the episode was left up to interpretation. Personally, I liked that, since we can all argue over what really happened, but I can see why you'd be angry.

Boyd
05-12-2010, 03:59 AM
humm i actually forgot that MiB is dead. he was not the evil one, what became smoky is the true evil, antagonist of the show that we know. but i don't see why they can't kill each other??? no rules were ever explained to us. from what i saw there is no reason smoky can't kill Jacob. did i miss something?

Their mother "made it that way". We don't know how she made it that way though

georgiawarhol
05-12-2010, 03:59 AM
Because Jacob was talking with the pillar of smoke in the recent times we've seen him (IE- "I want you kill you so badly"). The smoke monster was opened from Pandora's box.

Evil is released upon the island.

if the black smoke is not "brother", then how, in more recent times when they're talking, and when fake locke is talking to our people, does he talk about memories he has of his crazy mother, and talk about how he wants to leave the island so badly? that was something brother wanted to do.

Hugo Rocks
05-12-2010, 04:00 AM
Jacob, MIB, and Crazy Druid Mom has to be the most dysfunctional family ever on TV.

Overall I liked the episode, I hope they fill in the blanks on the nature of the islands power a little more from a scientific point of view next week.

If I were you I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm pretty sure this is all we're going to get as far aas the island's history/purpose. The rest will be how the plot for the Losties resolves. Or doesn't.

Boyd
05-12-2010, 04:02 AM
if the black smoke is not "brother", then how, in more recent times when they're talking, and when fake locke is talking to our people, does he talk about memories he has of his crazy mother, and talk about how he wants to leave the island so badly? that was something brother wanted to do.

He gets the memories of the people he inhabits. Remember how he talked about John's last thoughts before he died? However, I think its possible that smokey is still brother. His soul or essence or whatever you want to call it may have just left his body and taken on the new smoke form. It seems to coincidental that both MIB and smokie would be so consumed with leaving the island if they were two different people.

kayekaye1234
05-12-2010, 04:03 AM
if the black smoke is not "brother", then how, in more recent times when they're talking, and when fake locke is talking to our people, does he talk about memories he has of his crazy mother, and talk about how he wants to leave the island so badly? that was something brother wanted to do.

Smoke Monster has the memories of all the dead people he inhabits. Alex, Christian, Locke, Isabelle, all of them. He was just being MIB, the brother of jacob to talk with Jacob. Just like he is being Locke to talk to the losties.

georgiawarhol
05-12-2010, 04:04 AM
He gets the memories of the people he inhabits. Remember how he talked about John's last thoughts before he died?

ok, that makes sense. but then why would the black smoke want to leave so badly? would it just be because whatever horrible thing that will happen if he leaves will happen and he wants it to?

Pene
05-12-2010, 04:05 AM
Both John and MiB had crazy mothers, so it wasn't clear (to me) who fLocke was referring to himself as when he said that - both would be true.

deathwish
05-12-2010, 04:05 AM
This is the first time I've seen the forums this slow, that I can remember at least.

Boyd
05-12-2010, 04:06 AM
ok, that makes sense. but then why would the black smoke want to leave so badly? would it just be because whatever horrible thing that will happen if he leaves will happen and he wants it to?

LOL I actually just edited my last post to say that. I'm not 100% convinced that smokie and MIB are different people. I think he just transformed and left his body as a shell

georgiawarhol
05-12-2010, 04:07 AM
LOL I actually just edited my last post to say that. I'm not 100% convinced that smokie and MIB are different people. I think he just transformed and left his body as a shell

the whole man in black/smoke monster/boy who turned into a grown up who didn't seem evil or wrong at all to want to leave is all so confusing! :confused:

Pene
05-12-2010, 04:09 AM
I'm so disappointed to see Lost heading toward the same lame ending as Battlestar Galactica - "It was all magic!"
Seriously, at first glance that 'light' looked like a big gold bedazzled jewel. I wanted to barf realizing I've spent six years of my life with this show and this is what they give us?

four4elements
05-12-2010, 04:12 AM
Why did they start speaking english all of a sudden?

jps1012
05-12-2010, 04:13 AM
Why did the mother say thank you when MIB killed her? Was she trapped on the island like MIB? Did she con the MIB into killing her?

minimicrocosm
05-12-2010, 04:17 AM
ughhh...I was feeling pretty good about this episode until i started reading the forum. Now I'm so confused....

When MIB was thrown into the light was his body taken and he turned into the smoke monster?

Or was it that there was an evil smoke monster down there who killed him and is able to take his form.

The latter fits and explains why Jacob was obsessed with keeping "MIB" from leaving the island (he's evil) but it doesn't fit with the memories and conversations we have seen between MIB and Jacob.

If Jacob's job is protecting the island, why does he have to keep MIB there?

AGNK
05-12-2010, 04:18 AM
I think I had my expectations set to high. Feel kind of 'meh'. The thing that really chaps my ass is that they NEVER said MiB name. I mean, c'mon... "Jacob" was said like 10 times, but they never say the name of his brother? That was just a big Fuck You IMO. Unless, his name is something like "John" or something that will really make an impact.

I do like how they snuck A&E on us. We, the audience, have known about Island-time for a while, yet no one (that I know of) ever took that into account when determining the age of A&E. 60 years Island time is like 300 years I guess...

The whole "Golden Light" (Angels singing "Ahhhhhhh) thing did seem kind of hokey. Very ambiguous. I think its just something we have to buy into. Not to crazy about that...

All in all, 6 out of 10...

m8o
05-12-2010, 04:24 AM
I'm so disappointed to see Lost heading toward the same lame ending as Battlestar Galactica - "It was all magic!"
Seriously, at first glance that 'light' looked like a big gold bedazzled jewel. I wanted to barf realizing I've spent six years of my life with this show and this is what they give us? I swear, I 1/2 expected to see leprechauns outside guarding their gold they were storing down the hole...

Pene
05-12-2010, 04:25 AM
When MIB was thrown into the light was his body taken and he turned into the smoke monster?

Or was it that there was an evil smoke monster down there who killed him and is able to take his form.

The latter fits and explains why Jacob was obsessed with keeping "MIB" from leaving the island (he's evil) but it doesn't fit with the memories and conversations we have seen between MIB and Jacob.

I vote for A. My reason: the mother said that if Jacob were to "go down there," it would be worse than death for him. I think it is like Sayid/Claire/etc. with the zombification except that for some reason MiB got the added bonus of morphing into a smoke monster.

hippy campus
05-12-2010, 04:27 AM
So we were shown Gaia as the murderous (yet light side acting) mother. She protects the magic light from scientists who would use it against it's original purpose (thus creating evil)

Now, all that is left to figure out about this episode is what Jacob's brother was named. It seems they kind of married the Cain & Abel myths to create a new explanation for the Garden of Eden.

His name is unimportant however, as he seems to be the one that was seduced by a quest for the knowledge how to use the "energy" to escape back to his home.

Jack said that the bodies of Adam & Eve were approximately 50 years old, but they must be older still...

Surfer Girl
05-12-2010, 04:28 AM
I'm pretty sure the original others were the people who shipwrecked with Jacob/MIBs real mother.

Don't know about your theory on the 'others'. Looked an awful lot like Sawyers stabbing that boar to me.

georgiawarhol
05-12-2010, 04:28 AM
I vote for A. My reason: the mother said that if Jacob were to "go down there," it would be worse than death for him. I think it is like Sayid/Claire/etc. with the zombification except that for some reason MiB got the added bonus of morphing into a smoke monster.

didn't he once say to jacob, "you made me like this."? i vote for a as well, at least for now.

Pene
05-12-2010, 04:30 AM
Don't know about your theory on the 'others'. Looked an awful lot like Sawyers stabbing that boar to me.

Those boar stabbers looked like Vikings or something. Definitely not any Losties we know.

I thought at first - oh great! THIS is who The Others (the ones Ben teamed up with in cahoots with Richard to kill most of the DI) really are. But then Crazy Mom killed them all, so that can't be right.

arta
05-12-2010, 04:34 AM
Oooh here's some light. It does... stuff. Don't go down there. Cause stuff will happen. And then... here's a wheel. It's going to do something to this stuff that does stuff. You can get close enough to work on it. Just don't get too close or you turn in to a stuff mon...smoke monster.
Stupid.

Hugo Rocks
05-12-2010, 04:36 AM
Those boar stabbers looked like Vikings or something. Definitely not any Losties we know.

I thought at first - oh great! THIS is who The Others (the ones Ben teamed up with in cahoots with Richard to kill most of the DI) really are. But then Crazy Mom killed them all, so that can't be right.

I thought The Others were all people that Jacob brought to the island after Richard. He brings them so that he can prove MIB/Smokey (or whatever he is) wrong about the nature of humanity. The ones who choose to listen to Jacob via the intermediary Richard become Others. Anyone who does not listen dies (I'm guessing that part).

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 04:39 AM
Has anyone thought about:

1) How crazy mom said the exact same thing about people coming to the island as jacob's brother said on the beach when they saw the black rock coming in?

2) That morality (good vs. evil) has been pretty much eliminated from the story. Jacob is not good or evil incarnate, and neither is his brother. Jacob killed his brother because he thought he was getting revenge for his mother, but jacob's brother was killing his mother because of all the messed up stuff she did. she wanted to die, because she could have been "tricked" into becoming the immortal 'protector of the island' for who knows how long... and desperately wanted to die. Now Jacob is trying to find a replacement so he can die too. His soul can't move on until he finds his replacement... the crazy mom's soul was able to because she found her replacement (jacob).

THEREFORE

the game between jacob and his brother is really that they are both trying to get off the island. jacob is trying to get his replacement... and his brother is trying to go free... the evil acts they both do are for the purpose of achieving their own selfish end (getting off the island, or moving on).

3) How much this story of the history of the island resembles the Bible? (Jacob vs. Esau, garden of eden protected by angels, river of life [with wine to drink which resembles Christ's blood as the source of eternal life], the light which is in every man [God; John 1:4], fate vs. free will and the temptation to sin bringing evil into the world [the fall of mankind, Genesis 3---when smoke came out due to Jacob's choice]... I mean, Adam and Eve? For the Christian, alot of this episode made much more sense. It might be they are going for the 'personal interpretation' thing.. but it seems pretty similar to the Bible, with a few twists of course...


I think that Jack is going to get tricked into becoming the replacement for Jacob, but he will never be able to leave. The cycle will just continue...

Maybe the writers will try to appease both sides in some kind of cosmic compromise... somehow get jacob's replacement... but also let MiB leave???

All speculation..

Overall, great episode I thought.

silentounce
05-12-2010, 04:41 AM
I'm so disappointed to see Lost heading toward the same lame ending as Battlestar Galactica - "It was all magic!"
Seriously, at first glance that 'light' looked like a big gold bedazzled jewel. I wanted to barf realizing I've spent six years of my life with this show and this is what they give us?

Well, I mentioned it on here a long time ago, partially as a joke. But it's just like Brisco County Jr., with that orb. It's something that Carlton has done before so I'm not really surprised. A little disappointed though.

kaltkalt
05-12-2010, 04:42 AM
So Allison Janney is the ultimate "Lost" deus ex machina... and that's saying a crapload.

And we learn the Island made MIB into the smoke monster. Wow what an amazing answer.

And we learn that Jacob has the world's worst case of Stockholm Syndrome, obeying his kidnapper - who admits to having murdered his mother - no matter what, even when it comes to keeping his brother imprisoned on the island for all eternity.

But what I don't get, what makes no sense to me, is why Mommy Claudia didn't appear as a ghost-vision to Jacob too. Why only his twin brother? That's also yet another huge deus ex machina. You'd think she would have appeared to her firstborn son, the one she had named, if it had to be one of them.

And who built the Donkey Wheel? It seems like MIB and those people were killed long before it was finished, with that well having been filled in by the kidnapper/murderer/false mother (Janney). And why is it frozen?

And there's a big cave with bright golden light coming out of it on the island and nobody has ever found it? Really? I thought Sawyer searched every bit of the island as security chief for the DI, and that's just one person over the course of hundreds of years. And we don't learn a SINGLE THING about the FDW, except not only does the electromagnetic power it uses turn people into smoke monsters, it moves the island? What? I thought the FDW was going to be explained. Nope.

Anyway, it sure seems to me that MIB is the good guy and Jacob is the unknowing bad guy. He stays with, aids and abets his murderous kidnapper, and worst of all believes every damn thing she tells him without question. No crime is worse than believing what you're told without thinking about it or questioning it (which is why religion is so damn evil but that's another topic altogether). MIB is certainly justified in wanting to leave the island and discovering what else is out there.

I also thought Adam and Eve were much younger (well, fresher bodies that is) than MIB and kidnapper/murder othermother. Yes I didn't see a timeframe (let alone 23 A.D.) but it sure seems like this took place a long time ago, long before the Black Rock... at least a few centuries. The fact that they all spoke perfect english is probably just for our benefit as viewers... a whole episode with subtitles would not be good for ratings, at least not in America where people don't like to read.

It was an interesting episode, but I'm pretty disappointed overall. It seems like there should have been one more scene, Jacob talking to MIB after he came back as the smoke monster, jacob having already buried his body.

"The Rules" were not explained. The goal and purpose of people coming here to "make progress" was not explained. Nothing was explained except a seemingly inconsistent answer to who adam and eve were.

Was Allison Janney's character a smoke monster? Is that how she killed all those people and burried their wells/caves so quickly? If so, how did MIB stab her and kill her?

Eh.... lame.

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 04:42 AM
Okay, here's my theory on this:

The lolwell is really a collection of souls. The Mother implied this when she said it contained an energy that's inside all of us. The lolwell is where the Mother originally got her understanding and powers. When Jacob throws the MiB into the lolwell, he gets bombarded with these souls, stripping his own mortal form away, but leaving him as a manipulator of the dead. He can take on the forms of the dead (the first being himself) because he's been touched by these souls.

Now, the souls are what Jacob has been charged with protecting, and keeping on the Island. That's why the MiB can't leave; he's tied to the lolwell, which means the "protectors" existence keeps him on the island.

To those saying there weren't enough answers: okay, I can understand why some people want more hard answers to the mysteries. However, I do have one response to that: Midichlorians. Sometimes, the mystery is better than the tortured explanation. Plus, the point wasn't just the mysteries, it was explaining the motivations of the MiB. And this episode did that.

DharmaRules
05-12-2010, 04:43 AM
So did MIB release the smoke monster? Or did he become it? Are they one and the same? In prev episodes we've seen hieroglyphics that seem to depict the smoke monster (Ben gets judged and sees fake alex) being around prior to Jacob and Mib being born. Although we don't know for sure when they were born it didn't appear to be during the time of the ancient Egyptians.

m8o
05-12-2010, 04:44 AM
not towards any single person or post, but generally .... ugh, the endless & excessive speculation. No more them giving us an inch and we make a mile.

Hope everyone realizes it's physically impossible for us to get THE answers of the mysteries left tonight ... crazy-fake-mom never shared them. So either pray tonight that you soon see crazy-fake-mom in the next few hours of this show we have left as an un-characteristically talkative & informative ghost ... or give-it-up now.

...25 posts to go.

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 04:47 AM
But what I don't get, what makes no sense to me, is why Mommy Claudia didn't appear as a ghost-vision to Jacob too. Why only his twin brother? That's also yet another huge deus ex machina. You'd think she would have appeared to her firstborn son, the one she had named, if it had to be one of them.

That's not a Deus Ex Machina. A Deus Ex Machina is when a doomed ending is inevitable, and so the gods (or some stand-in for the gods) swoop down and make everything right.

And it actually makes sense. They're both displaying attributes of candidates; Jacob cannot lie (well), and the MiB can see dead people, just like Hurley.

Hugo Rocks
05-12-2010, 04:49 AM
Random Epi Questions:
-So, did FDW stay unsused until Ben turned it?
How did Ben know about FDW? Was it because MIB/Smokey (acting as Jacob) told him about it? Or was it from Dharma times?
-Did Jacob make up the rules about the candidates & not killing them? Why couldn't Smokey leave the island before there actually were any candidates?
-Will MIB/Smokey actually be able to leave the island if they're all dead?
-If the light is "the source" what is the AR implication if it is underwater? Does that mean "the source" is gone, or just covered up really really well now?
-Why did their birth mother appear to MIB as a boy?
-How does Jacob contain the Smoke monster on the island? (I know this is not a new one). How did Jacob protect the island when he periodically left it?
-Why did Smokey throw Des down one of the wells that he knows most likely has a EM pocket of energy? Is he aware of Des' ability re: EM?

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 04:50 AM
not towards any single person or post, but generally .... ugh, the endless & excessive speculation. No more them giving us an inch and we make a mile.

Did you really honestly think we were going to be given the answers in such a straight-forward way, that it wouldn't require any inferring? This show has always required the audience to come to their own conclusions. Hell, I'd be disappointed if they gave us answers that required no analysis.

gnosis
05-12-2010, 04:51 AM
I can answer some of those:

1.) The light is the essence of life/the island/the world, just like Jacob's mother said.

Sorry. I just don't buy it. If it was the essence of life why would it be dangerous for Jacob to go in there? Why would it be "worse than death"? Why would it turn the MIB in to the smoke monster? Why would it die out if people got a hold of it? It just doesn't make sense.


2.) You try to explain why MiB turned into Smokey when thrown into the light. We don't need a "midichlorian" explanation for that.

Not really following you here. As far as I can see there simply has been no explanation for why he was turned in to the smoke monster. It just happened. Which would be alright if this was the third episode of Lost, or the 30th. But it's the 118th, and only a couple of episodes remain.


3.) Doesn't matter how she knew. All that matters is Jacob and MiB's struggle. As TPTB said, not everything will be answered, including the history of the island before Jacob and his brother.

But we already knew they struggled. If that's all they they were going to tell us, then why even bother? This is just a useless repeat of what we've seen over and over and over again in the show. Restating the obvious.


4.) Again, doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if Jacob's mother is just as clueless as he is? I think it does. It would certainly make a difference if she was just conned in to doing something completely useless or if she made the whole thing up, as opposed to actually knowing what's going on on the island and there being a meaningful purpose.


5.) Maybe she was crazy, but I doubt it.

Well, we all have our theories. But it would be nice if the writers of Lost actually made some sense out of the red herrings and wild goose chases too much of this show has apparently been about.


6.) I was thinking that maybe she was the smoke monster, and that by dying (just like Dogen said, without saying a word to her), she was no longer Smokey.

More theories. But this episode answers very little.


7.) We don't need a rational explanation for everything. Especially this. THe light is magic, maybe? It doesn't really matter.

I don't need an answer for everything. For example, I really couldn't have cared less who "Adam and Eve" were, or what the story behind Libby knowing Hurley at the hospital was, or the dozens of other minor stupid mysteries of Lost. But the light that one of the most central and powerful characters of the show is trying to protect? How could it not matter to know what the hell it actually is?


8.) MiB wasn't evil. He just wanted to leave.

If he wasn't evil then why did Jacob give the whole "hell in the wine bottle" analogy to describe why he was trying to keep the MIB on the island? Why did the MIB murder dozens of people on the island? Sure seems evil to me.


By living with those people, he saw how evil they were, how evil the people were. And now, after who knows how many years, he's crazy about leaving, and is willing to kill any of what he believes to be evil people in order to do it.

I don't see anything that supports this theory. How were the people on the Black Rock that he killed out of the blue preventing him from leaving? How was Mr Eko preventing him from leaving? How were the cowering denizens of the Temple preventing him from leaving?


A lot of the episode was left up to interpretation. Personally, I liked that, since we can all argue over what really happened, but I can see why you'd be angry.

I don't mind some things being left open to interpretation, but Lost has brought "open to interpretation" to a whole new and incredibly frustrating level. It's just too random and ultimately unsatisfying. I really hope they get their act together soon.

mikejet
05-12-2010, 04:55 AM
My question is this. Why create this filler episode for something that could have been done in less than 15 minutes with FLocke at a campfire telling a story?

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 04:56 AM
-So, did FDW stay unsused until Ben turned it?
How did Ben know about FDW? Was it because MIB/Smokey (acting as Jacob) told him about it? Or was it from Dharma times?
-Did Jacob make up the rules about the candidates & not killing them? Why couldn't Smokey leave the island before there actually were any candidates?
-Will MIB/Smokey actually be able to leave the island if they're all dead?
-If the light is "the source" what is the AR implication if it is underwater? Does that mean "the source" is gone, or just covered up really really well now?
-Why did their birth mother appear to MIB as a boy?
-How does Jacob contain the Smoke monster on the island? (I know this is not a new one). How did Jacob protect the island when he periodically left it?
-Why did Smokey throw Des down one of the wells that he knows most likely has a EM pocket of energy? Is he aware of Des' ability re: EM?

1. Probably.
2. Either from MiB, or the MiB told Jacob at one point, and then Jacob relayed it to Richard
3. Probably because of him touching the candidates. He could leave, the Mother just stopped him.
4. Probably; the Candidate(s) are there to stop the "light" from leaving the Island. Smokey's been infused with said "light"
5. toss-up
6. Aspect of being a candidate (like Hurley)
7. Power passed on from the Mother (who I think got it from the "light" originally). That, is still a glaringly unanswered question.
8. Nah, he just needed to put Desmond someplace where he'd be stuck. Nothing more than that.

m8o
05-12-2010, 04:58 AM
My question is this. Why create this filler episode for something that could have been done in less than 15 minutes with FLocke at a campfire telling a story? Sounds like the perfect scene for JLockie [Vincent] to divulge all to Jack to me. ;)

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 05:00 AM
you guys have so many questions that most likely will never be answered. if they will be, then just wait for it. I don't understand why everyone is so bent out of shape about this episode. everyone has wanted to know what the island is and why everything is like it is... and this is why. they obviously knew this from the beginning, considering all of the things that had to happen up to this point (finding of the cave, adam & eve, protecting the island, etc.)

just enjoy the ride... 3 of the main characters died last week.. so they are clearly ending this for good. might as well enjoy it while you can...

I'm looking forward to them fusing the timelines together somehow.. and seeing how desmond plays a part in all this... as well as the future of the island as we now know it.

I don't think they're going to let us down. I think alot will make sense in the end.. and also alot will be left for interpretation.

kayekaye1234
05-12-2010, 05:00 AM
not towards any single person or post, but generally .... ugh, the endless & excessive speculation. No more them giving us an inch and we make a mile.

Hope everyone realizes it's physically impossible for us to get THE answers of the mysteries left tonight ... crazy-fake-mom never shared them. So either pray tonight that you soon see crazy-fake-mom in the next few hours of this show we have left as an un-characteristically talkative & informative ghost ... or give-it-up now.

...25 posts to go.


Aack, Amen!

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 05:01 AM
Sorry. I just don't buy it. If it was the essence of life why would it be dangerous for Jacob to go in there?

You see that big yellow thing in the sky? The Sun? Yeah, it's an essential part of life, couldn't have life without it. But get close to it, and you go poof.



More theories. But this episode answers very little.

I don't need an answer for everything.

Apparently you do.

hippy campus
05-12-2010, 05:02 AM
Interesting "Claudia" reference: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,828101,00.html

kaltkalt
05-12-2010, 05:04 AM
Stop calling Allison Janney's character the mother. She's a murderer and a kidnapper and a liar. And she's not their mother. It would have been nice to have gotten her name. It's just plain bullshit that we didn't get MIB's name, especially when he was KIB (kid in black). I'm fine with him not having a name when he was BIB (baby in black) as Claudia didn't know she was having twins. But surely the kidnapper/murderer gave the kid a name. Especially since she seemingly loved him more than Jacob.

And we didn't even get an explanation for why Jacob wears white/light clothes and BIB/KIB/MIB wears black/dark clothes. Even as babies they were wrapped in light/dark cloths, respectively. It certainly wasn't a matter of personal taste. I think we have to assume that fake-mom made one wear light and one wear dark. Now, if they were identical, rather than fraternal twins then it would have been a great explanation. You'd think it would have actually added a lot to the plot for them to be identical twins. Why bother making them twins at all?

kayekaye1234
05-12-2010, 05:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th05PmPEYzE

One of the last remaining Hitler LOST parodies. Though a few answers have been given since this was made. (sorry some strong language here)

mikejet
05-12-2010, 05:05 AM
you guys have so many questions that most likely will never be answered. if they will be, then just wait for it. I don't understand why everyone is so bent out of shape about this episode. everyone has wanted to know what the island is and why everything is like it is... and this is why. they obviously knew this from the beginning, considering all of the things that had to happen up to this point (finding of the cave, adam & eve, protecting the island, etc.)

just enjoy the ride... 3 of the main characters died last week.. so they are clearly ending this for good. might as well enjoy it while you can...

I'm looking forward to them fusing the timelines together somehow.. and seeing how desmond plays a part in all this... as well as the future of the island as we now know it.

I don't think they're going to let us down. I think alot will make sense in the end.. and also alot will be left for interpretation.

Ok, what is the island then?

kaltkalt
05-12-2010, 05:09 AM
I think Darlton were rubbing it in our faces with Janney's "every question will just lead to more questions" line. That's just mean. Screw them. They owe us better than this (and yes, they do owe us answers to the BIG questions - no not every little thing - and a solid ending to the series). We've put up with a lot of crap to get to this point, and we deserve answers. REAL answers. Not "the island made him the smoke monster" type answers. If you consider than a meaningful answer, ask me how to make a real working time machine. I'll tell you the secret. Seriously.

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 05:11 AM
Stop calling Allison Janney's character the mother. She's a murderer and a kidnapper and a liar. And she's not their mother. It would have been nice to have gotten her name. It's just plain bullshit that we didn't get MIB's name, especially when he was KIB (kid in black). I'm fine with him not having a name when he was BIB (baby in black) as Claudia didn't know she was having twins. But surely the kidnapper/murderer gave the kid a name. Especially since she seemingly loved him more than Jacob.

And we didn't even get an explanation for why Jacob wears white/light clothes and BIB/KIB/MIB wears black/dark clothes. Even as babies they were wrapped in light/dark cloths, respectively. It certainly wasn't a matter of personal taste. I think we have to assume that fake-mom made one wear light and one wear dark. Now, if they were identical, rather than fraternal twins then it would have been a great explanation. You'd think it would have actually added a lot to the plot for them to be identical twins. Why bother making them twins at all?


His name is Esau. They probably don't want to just come out and say it. I believe they are inferring it very strongly. If you read Genesis 25:21-27:46... it might shed some more light on the connection they are making, in my opinion. Jacob and Esau were twins (one came out clean, the other hairy---watch the episode again, you'll see what I mean). Jacob cheated Esau of his birthright...he basically ripped him off. That's exactly what Jacob did when he threw him into the light. Totally stole his opportunity to leave the island. The name Jacob means "heel snatcher"... basically he's a cheater. Remember how he lived under the heel of the statue? There are many connections... See one of my earlier posts to see some more biblical connections to this latest episode... there are alot more too.

mikejet
05-12-2010, 05:13 AM
His name is Esau. They probably don't want to just come out and say it. I believe they are inferring it very strongly. If you read Genesis 25:21-27:46... it might shed some more light on the connection they are making, in my opinion. Jacob and Esau were twins (one came out clean, the other hairy---watch the episode again, you'll see what I mean). Jacob cheated Esau of his birthright...he basically ripped him off. That's exactly what Jacob did when he threw him into the light. Totally stole his opportunity to leave the island. The name Jacob means "heel snatcher"... basically he's a cheater. Remember how he lived under the heel of the statue? There are many connections... See one of my earlier posts to see some more biblical connections to this latest episode... there are alot more too.

At this point it won't matter if they name him or not. People can draw conclusions but to what they are showing us it won't matter.

Yankee
05-12-2010, 05:14 AM
So, Jacob's mother single handedly filled the chamber + well in, killed everyone at the camp and torched it...? Wow.

gnosis
05-12-2010, 05:15 AM
Did anyone else notice that this episode gave us more evidence that the MIB is a liar?

Remember the little talk he gave to Desmond at the well? He said that a long time ago men on the island found that iron needles spun above places like this and so they dug, but didn't find anything. But in this episode we see that in fact they did find something. They found the light. Furthermore, the place was very significant to the MIB himself, as it was where he'd built the FDW as a means of getting of the island. Facts that he conveniently omitted when talking to Desmond.

kaltkalt
05-12-2010, 05:17 AM
His name is Esau. They probably don't want to just come out and say it. I believe they are inferring it very strongly. If you read Genesis 25:21-27:46... it might shed some more light on the connection they are making, in my opinion. Jacob and Esau were twins (one came out clean, the other hairy---watch the episode again, you'll see what I mean). Jacob cheated Esau of his birthright...he basically ripped him off. That's exactly what Jacob did when he threw him into the light. Totally stole his opportunity to leave the island. The name Jacob means "heel snatcher"... basically he's a cheater. Remember how he lived under the heel of the statue? There are many connections... See one of my earlier posts to see some more biblical connections to this latest episode... there are alot more too.

Yeah I know the Esau Bible crap. I will completely disregard Lost if it turns out to be based on the Bible. Though based on your name here I'm sure it's the only thing you can consider, and you probably see the bible in every little thing that happens on Lost.

kayekaye1234
05-12-2010, 05:22 AM
Yeah I know the Esau Bible crap. I will completely disregard Lost if it turns out to be based on the Bible. Though based on your name here I'm sure it's the only thing you can consider, and you probably see the bible in every little thing that happens on Lost.

Play nice boys. (girls?) This is a friendly forum.

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 05:22 AM
I'd just like to point out to those fretting about the mystical/religious nature of the explanations: we weren't literally told that everything was mystical. That was the interpretation of the Mother. The MiB, obviously, does not see it as such. He told Sawyer that the notion that it's some sort of mythological evil that could be released onto the world. He just sees it as an energy that is to be understood and used.

I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating. The show isn't saying definitely, that faith or science is the answer. It's about the philosophical conflict between the two.

horseman
05-12-2010, 05:24 AM
Stop calling Allison Janney's character the mother. She's a murderer and a kidnapper and a liar. And she's not their mother. It would have been nice to have gotten her name. It's just plain bullshit that we didn't get MIB's name, especially when he was KIB (kid in black). I'm fine with him not having a name when he was BIB (baby in black) as Claudia didn't know she was having twins. But surely the kidnapper/murderer gave the kid a name. Especially since she seemingly loved him more than Jacob.

And we didn't even get an explanation for why Jacob wears white/light clothes and BIB/KIB/MIB wears black/dark clothes. Even as babies they were wrapped in light/dark cloths, respectively. It certainly wasn't a matter of personal taste. I think we have to assume that fake-mom made one wear light and one wear dark. Now, if they were identical, rather than fraternal twins then it would have been a great explanation. You'd think it would have actually added a lot to the plot for them to be identical twins. Why bother making them twins at all?

To me this episode feels like the Season 5 finale. Maybe Mother is not really Mother; maybe it's Smokey. And Smokey just conned MIB into killing his "mother". Why? I don't know, maybe Smokey is one player in the game and there is another entity we haven't seen yet who is also playing. Mother's killing rampage reminded me of Flocke. As far as we know only Smokey assumes the images of dead people, like Claudia. Unless of course MIB is like Hurley and can see dead people.

ArkMon
05-12-2010, 05:25 AM
I haven't read anyone post, "Oh, yeah, so the kid we've been seeing intermittently all season IS Jacob, after all!"

zonker
05-12-2010, 05:27 AM
Lost always seemed to me to have two components.

1) A pseudoscience and/or supernatural mystery

2) A soap opera.

For me I liked the mystery part of it better though I liked many characters
and I figured all the soap opera stuff would tie in with the mystery of why
these people were there and what happened to them. It still might

But a good mystery is concluded with an explanation that makes sense of
all the mysterious stuff that has happened.

Weird stuff with no apparent motive and/or explanation is very amateurish.

Late in Season 5 I began to have doubts that "Lost" was going to have a
conclusion that made sense of most of the weird thing that had happened
but they had a whole other season to go and if they really devoted a lot of
time to it they could maybe pull a rabbit out of a hat and explain a good deal

My hope that for a quality conclusion to "Lost" has grown dimmer as the season went on and while I was glad to see an episode that finally answered
some questions I think it was too little to late. It even added some questions
about who mom was. (just a link in a chain who wanted to get out of her job so bad that she killed a woman and stole her babies?)

The TPTB once hinted that the revelation of Adam & Eve would show that they knew where they were going from the beginning but to me it looks totally the opposite like the whole thing was make up to fit the early discovery and this is corroborated by the age of the bodies.

To me the solving of the mysteries part of the show looks more and more like
a frustrated child working on a jigsaw puzzle trying to force pieces in where
they don"t really fit.

It would take a miracle now for this to end without me thinking TPTB aren't
hacks.

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 05:27 AM
Yeah I know the Esau Bible crap. I will completely disregard Lost if it turns out to be based on the Bible. Though based on your name here I'm sure it's the only thing you can consider, and you probably see the bible in every little thing that happens on Lost.


Thanks for all of the kind words. I have mentioned in earlier posts on this thread that I think they are opening it up to many interpretations... tonight's episode wass very biblically based... however, LOST writers also base alot of the stories and plots on atheistic philosophers as well... so it's not one-sided.

I did mention that I believe his name is Esau, which is my opinion, and I think it fits the story well... especially affter this episode and all of the connections to the garden of eden, the river of life, the wine representing Christ's blood (the source of immortality)..etc. etc. Adam and Eve.

I think they will end up leaving alot of open ended questions, and it will be open to each one's interpretation. Just thought I'd share mine...
;)

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 05:29 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?

zonker
05-12-2010, 05:31 AM
Stop calling Allison Janney's character the mother. She's a murderer and a kidnapper and a liar.

Lets call her CJ

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 05:32 AM
Ok, what is the island then?

It's up to your interpretation after this episode. I think we have a pretty clear picture at this point. Source of all life? Dead people remain, and their souls try to move on? Epic battle between good and evil? Immortality?

Seems pretty clear to me that it is a spiritual concept they are going for here.

mikejet
05-12-2010, 05:33 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?

No because nothing was explained and they simply threw us a bone of Adam & Eve.

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 05:34 AM
Just to be sure, the FDW wasn't finished by the end of this episode right? Does that mean someone else completed it?

Also, were all of the artifacts on the island (statue, temple, lighthouse) built before Jacob's mother got there?

zonker
05-12-2010, 05:36 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?


YES I believe thats true for many

Tobacconist
05-12-2010, 05:39 AM
The light, is just light. It's one of those basic things in like art and literature and life. There is no "explaining" light. It's the source of all goodness. It's like asking what "red" is. It's just red.

Obviously, the light can also give power. Jacob and his mother use it for power, e.g. the power to make "rules." But these rules can only exist along with people. Jacob can't make a rule that says "MIB can't leave," but he can make a rule that says "MIB can't leave as long as I am alive."

The writers hint that it is Jacob that makes these rules when the young MIB quips that "One day you'll make up a game and we'll have to play by your rules."

Either the mother made it a rule that the brothers couldn't kill each other, or she made it that way by making them both candidates (if a rule regarding candidates was already in place).

I think it's pretty clear that MIB just doesn't have a name. He wouldn't really need a name since he spent the first ten or so years of his life around only two other people.

I'll come out and say it, this episode was awesome... if you didn't understand it, the show might not be for you. There's always CSI Miami.

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 05:39 AM
In Summary...

Let me see if I have the episode right...we still don't know what MiB's real name is, but that's OK because the image that we've known as MiB (before he manifested as Christian Shepherd, spiders, John Locke, a horse, and who knows what else) isn't MiB at all. The real antagonist of the show is the black smoke which was originally released from the well of light which contains light/warmth/life of the kind that all people have inside them (fountain of youth anyone?) when Jacob threw the real MiB in. And the first dead body that Smokey incarnated as was MiB's. But Smokey's still bound by the rules between Jacob and MiB about not killing each other. And now that Jacob's dead, MiB is stuck in John Locke's form which must be another 'rule'.


What??? Is that really what happened?

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 05:42 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?

I think it's because a lot of people wanted a pseudo-hard science explanation. Which is a bit silly, because (a) we've already been given a pseudo-hard science for the "light," it was Chang's explanation in the Orchid station tape, (b) it's arguable that, in the context of science fiction, that pseudo-hard science is any more logical or sensible than mystical answers, and (c) the pseudo-hard science usually ends up being rather wrong in a real-world sense anyway. (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/lost-happily-ever-after-fact-check)

georgiawarhol
05-12-2010, 05:45 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?

i didn't dislike the episode at all, but i didn't love it, and not as much because of what was unexplained, but the more i think about it, i think i didn't love it because it made me feel like the mib is not bad. last week he killed three people we have loved from the beginning, so i absolutely hated him. then this week, i watched him grow up and seem like a rational normal guy who just wanted to leave and see what else was out there. and jacob really annoyed me in this episode, following "mother" like she wasn't a little off her rocker and hadn't killed his real mother.

and i understand that going into the light or whatever is ultimately what made mib evil, but i can't help feeling like he got the shitty end of the deal. and that makes me mad at this episode, because i feel like i should be hating him more, not feeling like he's justified.

but maybe that's what they're trying to do, nothing is positively one thing or the other. maybe every person, even the smoke monster and jacob, has 2 sides, one is light, one is dark... :confused:

m8o
05-12-2010, 05:49 AM
His name is Esau. [snip] ... His name is Vincent ... Vincent Benedict ... the crap that was left over when Julius Benedict was made. :p http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096320/
Mib is Vincent to Jacob's Julius.

zonker
05-12-2010, 05:53 AM
So the wine of candidates....

Is the statue already built? It seems to me the Latin language
comes after ancient Egypt as do Vikings.

The knife and as someone noted he killed her before she said anything

Maybe they will show repeats of the last several episodes of lost with the little
cheater notes and they will say things like "This crazy lady is a descendant of Taweret" and "This filled in well is re-dug by later inhabitants"[QUOTE]

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 05:56 AM
Is the statue already built? It seems to me the Latin language
comes after ancient Egypt as do Vikings.

It's entirely possible that the statue was simply on some other part of the Island we didn't see in this episode.

m8o
05-12-2010, 05:57 AM
No because nothing was explained and they simply threw us a bone of Adam & Eve. Right! Right? Right!!! All we learned was where MiB and Jacob formed all their preconceived notions from. ...and that's pretty much it. [!!!] Has it occurred to anyone else how little Jacob & MiB 'evolved' as beings in all their years of life? I mean geez, what a waste of space & air! :p

I too thought the most redeeming part of the ep was the [not the] Adam & [not the] Eve part.

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 06:04 AM
Right! Right? Right!!! All we learned was where MiB and Jacob formed all their preconceived notions from. ...and that's pretty much it. [!!!] Has it occurred to anyone else how little Jacob & MiB 'evolved' as beings in all their years of life? I mean geez, what a waste of space & air! :p

No, it seemed like the MiB had thrown off the preconceived notions he was taught from the Mother. Isn't that why he tells Sawyer in the cave that the idea that the island needs protecting is bullocks? Because he rejected her mystical explanations?

markb455
05-12-2010, 06:06 AM
Young MIB
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markgs455/4600095647/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/4600095647_5c514b6237_b.jpg

zonker
05-12-2010, 06:07 AM
Hmmm the the crazy lady say's going into the light is a fate worse than death. How does she know unless she has experienced it personally or communicated with someone who has?

This strongly hints that there was a smoke monster before MiB or Flocke unless the same thing doesn't happen to everyone who gets in the light. And that could be who filled in the well and killed everyone (it might be her since she was glad to die and get out of her fate that was worse than death)

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:08 AM
First half was incredibly lame, with awful acting and piss poor dialogue. Once Jacob and his brother grew up it was a bit better. But still very frustrating that the "answers" we're being given are barely answers at all. Some examples:

* There's a magic light, but what is it?
* Getting thrown in to the light made Jacob's brother turn in to a smoke monster... um.. but why?
* How did Jacob's mother know what she knows about the light and protecting it?
* Is she actually just as clueless about it as Jacob?
* Was she just crazy?
* Where did she get the power to bury the FDW, kill all those people, and make Jacob immortal?
* How does controlling the water and the light with the FDW let the MIB leave? Or does it even?
* Did hanging out with the other survivors of the shipwreck make the MIB evil or was he evil from the start?


This is almost the last episode and all we're being given are half-assed hints that seem so makeshift and threadbare it's ridiculous!

And the part with the mother looking in to the camera and talking about how every answer she gives will lead to just another question sounds like such a copout by the writers, who apparently can't think of any better explanation than "um... the magic light did it".

Have a delicious lollipop. You'll feel much better.

http://blogstruk.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/VerucaSalt.jpg

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:13 AM
Don't know about your theory on the 'others'. Looked an awful lot like Sawyers stabbing that boar to me.

I had the same thought. Will have to give my pause and rewind buttons a workout tonight.

GeorgeIsLost
05-12-2010, 06:14 AM
Just like the episode 'Dead is Dead'...I have to say, 'Lost is Lost'...and so are the writers for that matter. Six years, haven't missed one episode, and this is what we get? I don't want it to turn out as the biggest scam on TV. Why I write "scam" you ask...because like every scam, things start out good, exciting and believable. Then you realize you were taken for a ride.

In this episode, we learned nothing. This back story of the main two characters of the "how and why" of this series, was just simply lame. No matter how much you may have loved Lost, no matter how much of a fanatic you are (or were), you have to admit this plotline, this reasoning and final or close to final "explaination" (if you can call it an explaination), was completely weak. Even just a few episodes back, we were being entertained with good back stories (Ab Aeterno--with the back story of Richard), but to end it all with this lame episode, it has got to be worse than sequels of 'The Matrix'. Sorry folks, I know this has been the worst, yet realistic comment I have posted. Well, let's see our next and last episode reveal.

estaman
05-12-2010, 06:17 AM
What we've been given is like tofu instead of meat, nourishing but not satisfying. The LOST folks did this to themselves when Darlton talked early on about there being scientific explanations for things on the Island (no aliens, etc) which is one of the things that hooked me on the show. Seasons 5-6 have felt like a betrayal of that promise. Maybe the whole point of the show is not to believe anything you're told at face value without questioning. Most of the plots are generated out of previous manipulations, and tonight's episode was no exception.

Now I can stretch science to pseudo-science. After all, any significantly advanced technology can look like 'magic'. But there's been very little science, pseudo or otherwise, of late. Showing that smokey can't get through the sonic fence is pseudo science enough for me, for example.

Oh well, in for 5 seasons, I'm not going to give up now and am just going to try to enjoy the ride, wherever it ends up.

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:17 AM
I vote for A. My reason: the mother said that if Jacob were to "go down there," it would be worse than death for him. I think it is like Sayid/Claire/etc. with the zombification except that for some reason MiB got the added bonus of morphing into a smoke monster.

"zombification" :)

...You had me at hello, pene...you had me at hello.

markb455
05-12-2010, 06:21 AM
At the light.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markgs455/4600742716/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1316/4600742716_3df7985df5_b.jpg

GeorgeIsLost
05-12-2010, 06:21 AM
Play nice boys. (girls?) This is a friendly forum.

Most people don't play nice with Christians, always getting bashed somehow. But hey, Christ was bashed too I guess.

theexx
05-12-2010, 06:23 AM
humm i actually forgot that MiB is dead. he was not the evil one, what became smoky is the true evil, antagonist of the show that we know. but i don't see why they can't kill each other??? no rules were ever explained to us. from what i saw there is no reason smoky can't kill Jacob. did i miss something?

"One day you can make up your own game, and everyone else will have to follow your rules" :-)

I believe this is Jacobs game.

I for one loved how we didn't get the name of smokey, simply becuase it doesn't matter, atleast not now. The real "MiB" is dead, and the question is still; What is the smoke-monster. It would be wrong to even give it a name, maybe exept Cerberus, or something in that manner. I would guess it's some kind of manifestation of death, the part of the "well of light" Jacob can't control.

The thing I don't yet understand is the conversations between Jacob and smokey. They talk as if they were the brothers we see in this episode. Smokey have adopted the views of the "original" MiB when it comes to humans, and he wants to leave just as bad. Why? "Home" makes even less sense now, as MiB atleast had a "home" to go to, even though he never experienced it himself. Where's smokeys home?

Edit 1: Come to think of it, it does makes alot of sense that Smokey is still actually MiB, simply without the physical body to go with it. I guess "Jacob stole my flesh" (I believe this is close to what Smokey said in Ab Aeterno) makes alot of sense, since he was just left as a "monster" that needs to take the physical shape of anything or anyone dead. He cannot dies because he is already "dead".

Edit 2: I guess the "secret" behind the island, which in this episode is proven to be the force behind the donkey wheel etc, "the essence of life" if you want, was always gonna be a bit of a "let-down". If you build something up for 6 years, I don't think you can come up with an answer that is all around satisfying.

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:24 AM
...25 posts to go.

DUDE! You GO! I'm rooting for ya!

kaltkalt
05-12-2010, 06:27 AM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 06:30 AM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

TL;DR I didn't like this episode because I felt it contradicted my religious beliefs.

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:30 AM
Ok, what is the island then?

It's a piece of a land out at sea, but that's not important right now...

http://www.impawards.com/1980/posters/airplane.jpg

markb455
05-12-2010, 06:33 AM
Drink from the cup.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markgs455/4600142947/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1352/4600142947_0a5d3bc1b5_b.jpg

MVPQB
05-12-2010, 06:34 AM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.
http://i43.tinypic.com/167w8ly.jpg

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 06:36 AM
Why did the step-mom say 'thank you' when she died?

batdown
05-12-2010, 06:36 AM
the kid who played MIB as a child is adorable

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:36 AM
His name is Esau. They probably don't want to just come out and say it. I believe they are inferring it very strongly. If you read Genesis 25:21-27:46... it might shed some more light on the connection they are making, in my opinion. Jacob and Esau were twins (one came out clean, the other hairy---watch the episode again, you'll see what I mean). Jacob cheated Esau of his birthright...he basically ripped him off. That's exactly what Jacob did when he threw him into the light. Totally stole his opportunity to leave the island. The name Jacob means "heel snatcher"... basically he's a cheater. Remember how he lived under the heel of the statue? There are many connections... See one of my earlier posts to see some more biblical connections to this latest episode... there are alot more too.

Then where is Isaac and Rebecca? Isn't Jacob's mom "Claudia"? Nope. I'm seeing less and less likely that the biblical theory of Jacob/Esau will get fleshed out here.

But don't feel bad. I thought the island was the real Jeremy Bentham's Panopticon. Boy, do I feel sheepish.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/bgr0159l.jpg

batdown
05-12-2010, 06:38 AM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

one of the most hilarious sentences i have ever read. kudos, my friend.

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:41 AM
I haven't read anyone post, "Oh, yeah, so the kid we've been seeing intermittently all season IS Jacob, after all!"

ohyeahsothekidwe'vebeenseeingintermittentlyallseas onisjacobafterall

Darth Ben
05-12-2010, 06:44 AM
I hate when it's cold because you have to wear sweaters and coats and stuff.
I hate when it's hot because you're sweating all the time.
I hate when it's windy because dust gets in your eyes.
I hate when it rains because you can't go out.
I hate when people likes the weather because they're idiots.

ArkMon
05-12-2010, 06:46 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?

Speaking for myself, That's only part of it.

First I have to say, that I've never dissed an episode. Even those that are weaker than others, I can appreciate in their context in the greater story.

Heres my problem(s)- We're given an episode that goes way back to the origins of MIB and Jacob. We're expecting to learn those origins, and we do, to a limited extent. But the things that make them central to the mythology, are left wide open. We only learn that whatever mysterious powers or status are merely given to them by their adoptive mother. So where the heck did she get them from? What's with the mysterious communion with the light the cave, the presumed soul of the island?

Mother "makes it" so they each can never hurt each other" So apparently the Island protector has powers, as we've seen Jacob bestow. Immortality has been a key plot point. Here's we're given the appropriate time and setting to explain how and why, but its not.

Then when MIB Jr. sees his real mother, Claudia- he reasonably asks, " Why can't Jacob see you?" She replies, "Because I'm dead." He then leaves the obvious question un-asked, Why can I see you??" And clearly this is on many of our minds, to maybe explain Hurley's and Mile's powers and why or how the dead regulalry appear throughout the story to others. Here's a fundamental plot question, with the perfect place and time to answer it, but it wasn't.

I will say this about the epi, though. Those kids were good actors, I enjoyed watching them. Ditto for Jacob and MIB as adults. When they were playing that final game, they seamed completely authentic. The Mother did well, too,despite her paucity of help to us.

When Jacob drinks the wine, he gets this obvious knowing serenity about him. All I want is a little wine, too!

Zeefor
05-12-2010, 06:47 AM
I see both sides of the arguments. On the one hand people's brains are blunted to such a point that they can't even properly interpret symbolism and allegory, instead complaining about their lack of understanding about an item. There's the original grandfather paradox at work here, from my understanding, with the mysterious dead and burned camp (Smokey?) We still don't know what it is exactly, and I think we'll find out.

On the other hand, the plot structure and writing was crappy. Is this the best they could do? Silly holes, stupid ideas, unworked.

It was entertaining enough for what it was I suppose, although Jacob went from being a wise sage and carrier of the world's burden to a simple fool who was only able to communicate his thoughts and feelings by punching lots. Which is fine, except he remains exactly the same after twenty-five years. A simple fool with no innate qualities whatsoever. After a thousand years he's learned wisdom. Well whoopdeedoo. Bring me any random shit-eating street-scum eyeprole from its pool of untold millions, bury it for a thousand years and you'll get a prize. I don't find that interesting in the slightest, especially taking into consideration the contrast of his brother's inexplicable, unevolved, contextless, illogic-driven deux-ex-genius. That's even less interesting. Why? He dies, so what's the point? If they were both special souls, great. If they were both regular Joes, great. But...what...?

Plus if you're going to have the Primordial Light as the Great Basis, don't make it look like something out of a cheap TV fantasy series effect where the Medusa lives or some shit. Really, with Tucker whatshisface directing (who did Ab Aerterno) I was expecting this to look exalted. I've never had a problem with the ideas and concepts of Lost. If I were to complain about them I could go all the way back to the very beginning and give you a giant list of all the hokiness. It's what the show is, with all these ideas. But if it's executed poorly, then it debases that idea and defeats its own purpose.

Not complaining entirely. Like I said, there are things I like about it. The original grandfather paradox, the nature of the darkness and the light (if that gets a better seeing to that is), and some interesting things like drinking the wine. The wine itself is just wine, it's the action of drinking the wine that actually makes him unable to die.

Ultimately, what I took most from this, and the shallow and not-so-shallow angry rants on this forum about the episode, is that:

I don't really care.

I'm not upset or anything. Not disappointed. Quality of the first season hasn't been maintained throughout subsequent seasons, but with the nature of the show I wouldn't expect it to. But season 6 has just taken a dive. The writing this season is Lost's biggest unexplained mystery. When I first saw the first couple of seasons back to back, I went from liking the characters to really caring about them. Now I don't. I just watch it. In fact since this episode didn't give us shock and awe with a grand opening of Egyptians on a ship, building a statue, anything panoramic or anything breathtaking, or any wow reveal, I'm gonna finally head to the spoiler forum 'cause I'm just interested in seeing what the idea is for the last two eps. Don't have the patience for it all to be 'revealed' to me finally, in a dimly-lit room alone with my cup of coffee and cigarette and Lost-time. I like Lost, but there's not really anything special about it anymore.

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:47 AM
Do people dislike the episode because the original cause of everything (the potion, the Mom, the EM = Smokey) is unexplained?

Well said. Floating daggers, witches, and apparitions were integral supernatural elements in Macbeth, and required no explanation.

Personally, I've enjoyed guessing for 6 years, and will miss the puzzle when it is gone. I'll vote for Electromagnetism.

DriveshaftRoadie
05-12-2010, 06:49 AM
So where the heck did she get them from? What's with the mysterious communion with the light the cave, the presumed soul of the island?

Methinks the answer to the first question is the second question, that she received her powers from the lolwell.

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 06:49 AM
Speaking for myself, That's only part of it.

First I have to say, that I've never dissed an episode. Even those that are weaker than others, I can appreciate in their context in the greater story.

Heres my problem(s)- We're given an episode that goes way back to the origins of MIB and Jacob. We're expecting to learn those origins, and we do, to a limited extent. But the things that make them central to the mythology, are left wide open. We only learn that whatever mysterious powers or status are merely given to them by their adoptive mother. So where the heck did she get them from? What's with the mysterious communion with the light the cave, the presumed soul of the island?

Mother "makes it" so they each can never hurt each other" So apparently the Island protector has powers, as we've seen Jacob bestow. Immortality has been a key plot point. Here's we're given the appropriate time and setting to explain how and why, but its not.

Then when MIB Jr. sees his real mother, Claudia- he reasonably asks, " Why can't Jacob see you?" She replies, "Because I'm dead." He then leaves the obvious question un-asked, Why can I see you??" And clearly this is on many of our minds, to maybe explain Hurley's and Mile's powers and why or how the dead regulalry appear throughout the story to others. Here's a fundamental plot question, with the perfect place and time to answer it, but it wasn't.

I will say this about the epi, though. Those kids were good actors, I enjoyed watching them. Ditto for Jacob and MIB as adults. When they were playing that final game, they seamed completely authentic. The Mother did well, too,despite her paucity of help to us.

When Jacob drinks the wine, he gets this obvious knowing serenity about him. All I want is a little wine, too!

All good points! As for the dead thing; I explained it to myself by saying that dead people that reappear can choose to only be seen by certain people.

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 06:50 AM
What about the differences between Jacob and MiB from an early age? What do you people make of those?

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 06:54 AM
it has got to be worse than sequels of 'The Matrix'.

HEY! HEY HEY HEY!!!! Now you're getting PERSONAL!
:(

I mean, they built their own freeway, just to film the most badass chase scene in history.

Take it back, I beg you...
http://www.zastavki.com/pictures/1024x768/Movies_M_Matrix_Reloaded_001363_1.jpg

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 06:57 AM
Fingers crossed that there is something more to the loophole than MiB just needing someone else to kill Jacob.

tomlevine1
05-12-2010, 07:03 AM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

But, thanks for advising the rest of us peasants, what a bunch of losers we are.

http://mudpreacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/stuck-up-elder-brother.jpg

Daedelus Vedder
05-12-2010, 07:10 AM
So when the Losties flashed back and Sawyer was holding that rope, is it safe to say they Flashed before MiB and his people built the wells in search of the light? I can't remember if they saw the Statue during that flash (and I'm guessing the statue wasn't built yet in the time period Across the Sea takes place), so that might be a problem.

Cestrian Saint
05-12-2010, 07:21 AM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

I said something similar to this after episode 5 or 6, on the UK forum. I was abused so much that I've never posted there again.
I totally agree with you. They've left it too late to answer everything. It's like thy've been making it up as they go along and now anything that is answered will be crammed into the final episode. I feel I've been suckered by the six year scam :(

Vett
05-12-2010, 07:29 AM
Sleeps in the Cave
But what I don't get, what makes no sense to me, is why Mommy Claudia didn't appear as a ghost-vision to Jacob too. Why only his twin brother? That's also yet another huge deus ex machina. You'd think she would have appeared to her firstborn son, the one she had named, if it had to be one of them.

I don't recall Jacob turning in the direction of where Claudia was, but that's neither here nor there.

It's already been established that sometimes ghost-visions can be seen by all, some, or even one person. Perhaps ghost visitors are selective in who can see them? As such, Jack can't see ghost-Michael, but Hurley sure as hell can.

Also, has no one had the thought that perhaps Mommy Claudia Ghost was really Smokie projecting an image of MiB's mother in order to trick and lure him to his side? After all, the image got MiB to turn against Jacob and their Mother.



In this episode, we learned nothing. This back story of the main two characters of the "how and why" of this series, was just simply lame. No matter how much you may have loved Lost, no matter how much of a fanatic you are (or were), you have to admit this plotline, this reasoning and final or close to final "explaination" (if you can call it an explaination), was completely weak. Even just a few episodes back, we were being entertained with good back stories (Ab Aeterno--with the back story of Richard), but to end it all with this lame episode, it has got to be worse than sequels of 'The Matrix'. Sorry folks, I know this has been the worst, yet realistic comment I have posted. Well, let's see our next and last episode reveal.

It's a good thing this isn't the end of Lost then. There's still time to answer questions. Do I believe every question will be answered? No. Do I believe the definitive ones will, yes. How is it that people haven't seen this coming? Do you guys think there could truly be better explanations? If so I'd like to hear them.

Stop smoke moster keep planet/reality/universe safe. Sounds pretty damn good to me.



At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you.


Great episode, yes. Revealing, not so much. And that's what makes Lost great. That sense of ambiguity, the fact that not everything has to have a perfect answer. It'll be nice when the show is over and you will be able to debate it without being forcefed answers. You people just get crazy about every little thing it's ridiculous. Why is there a light? Why does the light have power? Why does it have to be protected? Who made the light? Who made the thing that made the light? How come it's light and not dark? Why is the light so bright? You see, it was awesome when the woman said "Every question answered will lead to more questions" and they're absolutely right.
They didn't say that because the show will lead to more questions, but because fans question everything. There has to be a point where they say "This is how it is, end of story, like it or not". Not everyone will like that, but sometimes, as a parent to a child, you just have to tell them how it is.

Some people just have too many expectations. If you really think about it Lost provides a little bit of everything to everyone. Everyone will be able to take something from it from those that are religious, agnostic, scientific, metaphysical, or something of another nature.

Lastly, there are those that say this episode is weak, but they never explained why? Weak because the answers didn't conform to your ideas(God forbid!). Weak because they haven't already explained everything? Weak because they didn't reveal MiB's name(Honestly, I wasn't expecting this, and now I don't ever expect it(Which suits me just fine), and anyone who was expecting it is weak ;) )

Man who believes in an inherant good in people accidentally kills his brother, which guilts(speculation) him into fulfilling his duty of protecting the Island from; because of his brothers death; the evil that was released upon the world who only wants to get off an Island, and in doing so will negate existence. Sound weak to you?

JiMMy-BoY
05-12-2010, 07:30 AM
Bit dissapointing:(

SuperDayv
05-12-2010, 07:32 AM
I vaguely remember at one point hearing about an ancient effort at time travel that involved metal and water, something like that. Anyone know what I'm talking about??

Siena1383
05-12-2010, 07:37 AM
My questions and thoughts on the episode, in no particular order:

1. If MIB's (false) mother didn't kill him when she said she was sorry, then pushed him, what did she do to him? (We know she didn't kill him because he was alive enough both to kill her and to later be killed by Jacob.

2. I never thought Jacob was all-good, though this episode shows he was at least not evil, was a decent kid. It also shows, though, that the MIB wasn't evil.

3. Did anyone notice that the woman didn't seem to be planning to kill Claudia (the twins' real mother) until she laid eyes on baby MIB? Her whole expression changed when she saw him.

4. Same theme of someone stealing someone else's baby and lovingly raising it/them as her own as with Ben Linus and Alex.

5. Claudia had only picked one name, Jacob. Maybe the false mother never named MIB, either? How odd that would be, but it would explain his lack of a name.

6. When and how did th Egyptian-looking statue come to exist, since it didn't seem to be there when the twins were growing up?

7. Before she ever killed him, the false mother told MIB he could never leave the island. But Jacob later leaves the island. How did she know? And why couldn't he leave?

8. What was the potion she made Jacob drink, that made him "like me now"?

kaltkalt
05-12-2010, 07:50 AM
I just rewatched it and you know what pissed me off the most this time around? It was fakemom kidnapper-murderer telling Jacob and KIB "you never have to worry about dying, I made it so that you will never die" when Jacob asked her "what's dying?"

Talk about a pathetic, ipse dixit explanation. And MIB did kinda sorta die, it's not really clear... maybe what she "did" to them caused him to turn into the smoke monster, his human body dying but his "spirit" (ugh I despise that word) living on eternally. Regardless, it's just a pathetic explanation for anything. Having the deus ex machina spew ipse dixit like that is just insulting. The only thing more insulting was having important questions interrupted by the snooty retort "any question will just cause more questions." Screw you, Carlton and Damon. Seriously, suck my ass.

markb455
05-12-2010, 08:10 AM
Twin Brothers
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markgs455/4600276069/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/4600276069_e668d2339f_b.jpg

Ranokel
05-12-2010, 08:37 AM
I wonder how the rules work. She said "I made it so that you can't hurt each other" - but they do!!! Jacob first beats MIB, and later he kills him... what kind of rule is THAT!?

It also makes me think... what if they actually can break the rules!? When BIW appears Flocke for the second time (to remind him of the rules), he just tells Desmond to "ignore" him (does that mean to ignore the rules as well?)... why does he have to remind him of the rules at all?? If he can't kill Sawyer by rule, why does KidJacob need to remind him, he won't be able to kill him anyway, know what I mean?

And once Ben accused Widmore of having broken the rules...


By the way, I guess MIB is called Apep... makes much more sense than the Esau stuff.

Vett
05-12-2010, 08:47 AM
I thought when she said hurt she meant kill.

Maybe Jacob did break the rules by hurting/killing MiB, and then on top of that sending him into the light. Perhaps those two acts are what caused the Smoke Monster to be created?

But I actually think that Smokie was down in the hole the whole time and the light was keeping it at bay. And then either through the act of Jacob and what he did to his brother or physically sending a body into the light broke the lights hold on Smokie.

It seems implied that Jacob set up the rules for the game that he and Smokie are playing. I'm wondering why Smokie agreed to those rules in the first place.

Boner4Lost
05-12-2010, 08:53 AM
I vote for A. My reason: the mother said that if Jacob were to "go down there," it would be worse than death for him. I think it is like Sayid/Claire/etc. with the zombification except that for some reason MiB got the added bonus of morphing into a smoke monster.

maybe because he was the first one?

markene1
05-12-2010, 09:47 AM
I realy liked this episode. My view of the MIB thing is that he did not die. He just gained the power of becoming the smoke monster. And did most likly take his old body back. All he wants to do is leave, i think he is the same, not evil he just wants to leave.

karika1999
05-12-2010, 09:51 AM
I liked how they kept some things ambiguous so we aren't trapped by 'this is a bible story' or 'this is egyptian tale'... I am just going to fire out some thoughts in no particular order.
To those saying the boar stabber is Sawyer... watch it again. I thought they may mix things up like that too, but no way. The guy is wearing ancient garb and decorations.
The boy that appears to Smocke is Jacob as a boy. Same actor. Someone had said 'why did kidnapper mom appear as a boy"... this hasn't happened as far as I know. Jacob is appearing as he did when a boy to Smocke and Sawyer... maybe there is something in that Sawyer could see him...
It clearly is a game that Jacob and brother are playing, with the block board and the black and white pieces (minus two that are buried with bodies and now in Jack's possession, maybe so he can make up a new game since it will now be him in 'charge' of the island)
yes I think crazy kidnapper was a smoke monster. the part I don't get yet is when Jacob drank the wine, she said, "Now you are the same as me" sounds like maybe some were right and there are two smoke entities.
As to why Jacob's brother was able to kill the kidnapper- he was able to stab and kill her because he plunged the knife before she spoke?
when kidnapper said sorry to Jacob's brother and pushed him into the wall, she was saying she was sorry for what she (was going to do) did to the settlement and all the people (or what she called a smoke monster to do?)
Aaron is another island born baby that was lovingly raised by another... (kidnapper and the twins, Ben and Alex)
I wonder if Jacob finished the FDW and that was how he got off island...
(potion ) I think it was the words kidnapper spoke over the wine that mattered, not the wine itself.
I do think the kidnapper was looking for a replacement as an 'out' for her to move on. This is why she said thank you upon death.

kintrell
05-12-2010, 10:02 AM
I'd just like to point out to those fretting about the mystical/religious nature of the explanations: we weren't literally told that everything was mystical. That was the interpretation of the Mother. .

Finally an intelligent comment.

Since when was good story telling about the audience anyways.

You would think this was the series finale the way people are complaining.

As if someone who lived a couple thousand years ago is going to have a scientific understanding of what is happening on that island.

Life is mystery, and Lost is a HUGE metaphore for life itself

LOST is not going to answer our questions about OUR universe, and sometimes it seems that is what people are expecting.

lost4fun
05-12-2010, 10:17 AM
This was suppossed to be a revealing episode..an episode we would see things for what they really are. Disappointing.
We need some info on who build the temple and the statue. How this place was originally discovered (by the Egyptians?), the Exits to Tunisia, all this Season 4 time and space travelling and clearing up what happened with the DI. We still don't know what impact Jughead had on the island at the time it exploded...ok the losties came back but what about the rest of the people on the island?
I just hope they will not be telling us the Temple 'has always been here' or that MiB built it with his two bare hands.

Boner4Lost
05-12-2010, 10:18 AM
i really am leaning towards the theory that the mother lady was the smoke monster (or some form of that entity). it's the only explanation as to how she was able to kill all those people and fill the hole, why she was so willing to die (to escape that fate), and why she favored MIB as a kid (maybe she knew that was his fate and felt sympathy for him?)

MissLinus
05-12-2010, 10:57 AM
The one thing that fascinated me about this episode was that Jacob and MIB are just as clueless as everyone else, they have no idea what the island really is, nobody told them.

And MIB doesn't seem like the bad guy anymore, I genuinely feel for him and would like him to leave the island... He gets kidknapped by a crazy woman who kills his mother and won't let him go home, she then kills his people and then his brother turns him into a monster, forever trapping him on the island. Jacob is a naive douche! He has blind faith in this crazy woman and does whatever she says even though she is clearly insane!

They MIB is still a little child who just wants to go home, I really don't think he's "evil incarnate".

The sad things is that if Jacob hadn't taken his body and turned him into the smoke monster he could have finally gone home and not caused any problems. He was a normal person before being thrown into the light :(

Mr.Majestyk
05-12-2010, 11:50 AM
The one thing that fascinated me about this episode was that Jacob and MIB are just as clueless as everyone else, they have no idea what the island really is, nobody told them.

And MIB doesn't seem like the bad guy anymore, I genuinely feel for him and would like him to leave the island... He gets kidknapped by a crazy woman who kills his mother and won't let him go home, she then kills his people and then his brother turns him into a monster, forever trapping him on the island. Jacob is a naive douche! He has blind faith in this crazy woman and does whatever she says even though she is clearly insane!

They MIB is still a little child who just wants to go home, I really don't think he's "evil incarnate".

The sad things is that if Jacob hadn't taken his body and turned him into the smoke monster he could have finally gone home and not caused any problems. He was a normal person before being thrown into the light :(

It really confused me with all the developments. On one hand crazy mom was evil for killing the real mom but she was good to the boys and they loved her. Even when MiB had grown up he still referred to her as mother and was pained by killing her. Despite knowing that she killed his real mother, he still loved her in some way.

Then there's the whole part where boy in black wants to go live amongst his people, but later on shows contempt for them. When Jacob asks why he stays with them he says its a means to an end. To what end? So that he can get off the island, but for what purpose? So he can live out his life amongst the people he hates?

I guess I'm sort of confused by the rationale for the characters actions.

metofa
05-12-2010, 12:18 PM
Mother decided to raise up jacob and his brother after they were born, because she saw in them some fresh new "candidates" for one of them to replace her after they grow up!

she was immortal and one of the candidates can kill her, hence the brother.. Jacob was attached to the island, he decided to stay and protect the light.

The light on the island is a symbol that represents the souls, evil, good, etc..
Smokey was trapped in the light hole so that he won't be able to manipulate people and force them into becoming evil.. some people can do evil, but not all of them can.. but with Smokey's help, world would be in trouble..
It only needed a body to be released from that light hole, smokey took over jacob's bro after he fell and he was released..

That's why the mother asked them not to ever go down...

reAaaallyLost
05-12-2010, 12:37 PM
when Jacob threw the real MiB in. And the first dead body that Smokey incarnated as was MiB's. But Smokey's still bound by the rules between Jacob and MiB about not killing each other

How the heck does that work?? If Jacob cant Kill MIB then MIB would not be Dead at all so no dead body for smokey to incarnate.. (and if he IS dead and was incarnated, the rules did not hold true for MIB and Jake so why the heck would Smokey be bound by them????)

scott_burke
05-12-2010, 12:58 PM
How the heck does that work?? If Jacob cant Kill MIB then MIB would not be Dead at all so no dead body for smokey to incarnate.. (and if he IS dead and was incarnated, the rules did not hold true for MIB and Jake so why the heck would Smokey be bound by them????)

Perhaps smokie is the soul of MiB.

Doesn't that still make him MiB?

Desmond_DK
05-12-2010, 01:06 PM
The one thing that fascinated me about this episode was that Jacob and MIB are just as clueless as everyone else, they have no idea what the island really is, nobody told them.

And MIB doesn't seem like the bad guy anymore, I genuinely feel for him and would like him to leave the island... He gets kidknapped by a crazy woman who kills his mother and won't let him go home, she then kills his people and then his brother turns him into a monster, forever trapping him on the island. Jacob is a naive douche! He has blind faith in this crazy woman and does whatever she says even though she is clearly insane!

They MIB is still a little child who just wants to go home, I really don't think he's "evil incarnate".

The sad things is that if Jacob hadn't taken his body and turned him into the smoke monster he could have finally gone home and not caused any problems. He was a normal person before being thrown into the light :(

This!

And MiB wasn't dead when he float in to the light, just was just knocked unconscious..

Jeremy Spoke
05-12-2010, 01:18 PM
I thought when she said hurt she meant kill.

Maybe Jacob did break the rules by hurting/killing MiB, and then on top of that sending him into the light. Perhaps those two acts are what caused the Smoke Monster to be created?

But I actually think that Smokie was down in the hole the whole time and the light was keeping it at bay. And then either through the act of Jacob and what he did to his brother or physically sending a body into the light broke the lights hold on Smokie.

It seems implied that Jacob set up the rules for the game that he and Smokie are playing. I'm wondering why Smokie agreed to those rules in the first place.

I still think MIB, or the MIB that was Jacob's brother, is dead. Jacob didn't technically kill him, he floated in on his own. The smoke is the personification of evil and was released when MIB was, for lack of a better word, sacrificed. The smoke can take on other people's shells, and at this time the shell was Jacob's brother.

The rule thing was a nice setup too. When Jacob's brother said he could make the rules when he sets up his own game that is exactly what Jacob did.

I say all this with authority as I have been wrong so many times about the show that it truly doesn't matter.

tzakiel
05-12-2010, 01:19 PM
Couple of notes

- Mother says to Jacob "It has to be you" just as Desmond said it to Jack last week.

- We have seen the wine bottle Mother used before, when the concept of the "cork" was being explained

hippy campus
05-12-2010, 01:44 PM
I don't recall Jacob turning in the direction of where Claudia was, but that's neither here nor there.

It's already been established that sometimes ghost-visions can be seen by all, some, or even one person. Perhaps ghost visitors are selective in who can see them? As such, Jack can't see ghost-Michael, but Hurley sure as hell can.

Also, has no one had the thought that perhaps Mommy Claudia Ghost was really Smokie projecting an image of MiB's mother in order to trick and lure him to his side? After all, the image got MiB to turn against Jacob and their Mother.


It's a good thing this isn't the end of Lost then. There's still time to answer questions. Do I believe every question will be answered? No. Do I believe the definitive ones will, yes. How is it that people haven't seen this coming? Do you guys think there could truly be better explanations? If so I'd like to hear them.

Stop smoke moster keep planet/reality/universe safe. Sounds pretty damn good to me.



Great episode, yes. Revealing, not so much. And that's what makes Lost great. That sense of ambiguity, the fact that not everything has to have a perfect answer. It'll be nice when the show is over and you will be able to debate it without being forcefed answers. You people just get crazy about every little thing it's ridiculous. Why is there a light? Why does the light have power? Why does it have to be protected? Who made the light? Who made the thing that made the light? How come it's light and not dark? Why is the light so bright? You see, it was awesome when the woman said "Every question answered will lead to more questions" and they're absolutely right.
They didn't say that because the show will lead to more questions, but because fans question everything. There has to be a point where they say "This is how it is, end of story, like it or not". Not everyone will like that, but sometimes, as a parent to a child, you just have to tell them how it is.

Some people just have too many expectations. If you really think about it Lost provides a little bit of everything to everyone. Everyone will be able to take something from it from those that are religious, agnostic, scientific, metaphysical, or something of another nature.

Lastly, there are those that say this episode is weak, but they never explained why? Weak because the answers didn't conform to your ideas(God forbid!). Weak because they haven't already explained everything? Weak because they didn't reveal MiB's name(Honestly, I wasn't expecting this, and now I don't ever expect it(Which suits me just fine), and anyone who was expecting it is weak ;) )

Man who believes in an inherant good in people accidentally kills his brother, which guilts(speculation) him into fulfilling his duty of protecting the Island from; because of his brothers death; the evil that was released upon the world who only wants to get off an Island, and in doing so will negate existence. Sound weak to you?

Very well said! Anyone that wants to attempt to write a better TV show than LOST better GET CRACKIN'! The bottom line is that if you put every great story UNDER A MICROSCOPE then yes, you will find flaws or inconsistencies. It doesn't mean it's still not a GREAT STORY.

Did they close down Television Without Pity? It seems like someone unplugged a cork and let in a lot of hateful people...

Just Sayin'! ;)

This has been a great discussion of this episode! There hasn't been a debate like this for quite awhile! :p


And this from Miss Linus:
The one thing that fascinated me about this episode was that Jacob and MIB are just as clueless as everyone else, they have no idea what the island really is, nobody told them.

And MIB doesn't seem like the bad guy anymore, I genuinely feel for him and would like him to leave the island... He gets kidknapped by a crazy woman who kills his mother and won't let him go home, she then kills his people and then his brother turns him into a monster, forever trapping him on the island. Jacob is a naive douche! He has blind faith in this crazy woman and does whatever she says even though she is clearly insane!

They MIB is still a little child who just wants to go home, I really don't think he's "evil incarnate".

The sad things is that if Jacob hadn't taken his body and turned him into the smoke monster he could have finally gone home and not caused any problems. He was a normal person before being thrown into the light :(I for one intend to hang in there and reserve my final judgment until it's all over. :cool: Very astute Miss Linus!

Peace my friends.:)

Friend of Juliet
05-12-2010, 01:52 PM
Couple of notes

- Mother says to Jacob "It has to be you" just as Desmond said it to Jack last week.

- We have seen the wine bottle Mother used before, when the concept of the "cork" was being explained


Right. And then Jacob gave the bottle to MIB. Was he attempting to trick him into drinking some of the wine so that he would have to assume his role as guardian of the light?

NoVa
05-12-2010, 02:07 PM
I thought The Others were all people that Jacob brought to the island after Richard. He brings them so that he can prove MIB/Smokey (or whatever he is) wrong about the nature of humanity. The ones who choose to listen to Jacob via the intermediary Richard become Others. Anyone who does not listen dies (I'm guessing that part).

I don't think the others are the people who has been brought to the island by Jacob. Because when richard asked about them, jacob said, all the people he brought to the island,they are all dead in ab aeterno.

habman47
05-12-2010, 02:15 PM
What the hell is wrong with you people? How can you be sitting here saying we didn't get answers when I finished that episode thinking "damn they just explained everything it makes sense now." Whether you liked the answers or not is up to you, (ie. the light explanation wasn't my favorite, but I'll take it).

But some of the things people are complaining about are retarded. One person on here wants an explanation for how the light turned him into smoke, and where the mother came from, and what is the light really, and blah blah blah. They explained all this stuff, you just gotta use your brain and infer a little bit. This show's answers have always required a little effort on the viewer's part in connecting the dots from point A to point B. And things like where the mother came from? She came from her mother at some point hundreds of years earlier, from somewhere, and it doesn't really matter, there's always been someone there to protect that light. Or what is the island really? Huh? They explained to us what the island is and what its significance is, what more do you want? Do they need to go back to the formation of the earth and describe the depositing of certain pockets of energy under certain layers of crust and volcanic debris depositing to form a land mass.

Even the light, she explained what it was, it's the essence of life, maybe what makes up that indefinable thing that we call a soul, going directly into it destroys you and released some kind of energy, because that's what she said would happen. I liked the episode because it showed that Jacob wasn't "good" and his brother wasn't "bad" they just responded to their situations differently, and that Jacob's a little bitch.

Finally, people keep talking about MiB as if they're referring to Jacob's brother. THE MIB WE NOW KNOW IS NOT JACOB'S BROTHER. Jacob's brother was either killed and the MiB was released, who used his brother's physical form. Or Jacob's brother's soul was turned into the smoke monster/MiB, which left some elements of his personality integrated into the smoke monster.

Winter_of_63
05-12-2010, 02:20 PM
Once upon a time there was a beautiful island.
On that island there was a cave.
In that cave there was a beautiful golden light.
The same golden light that glows in every boy and girl.

If that golden light goes out on the island,
it goes out in every boy and girl everywhere.
You don't want that golden light to go out
in every boy and girl, do you?

You must protect the beautiful golden light
from greedy people who are never satisfied
with the amount of golden light they're given.
Greedy people can destroy the golden light.

You're willing to spend your life protecting the
golden light from greedy people aren't you?
Even if it means living alone forever on that beautiful island and
killing all the greedy people who come to steal the light.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy cow, the most complicated TV show plot ever devised
revolves around something akin to a fairly tale.

dj_cityboy
05-12-2010, 02:29 PM
i really am leaning towards the theory that the mother lady was the smoke monster (or some form of that entity). it's the only explanation as to how she was able to kill all those people and fill the hole, why she was so willing to die (to escape that fate), and why she favored MIB as a kid (maybe she knew that was his fate and felt sympathy for him?)

yeah i like this a lot, and i completely agree, although it doesnt really explain why the smoke monster was unleashed when MIB was sailing facedown in the river...

*was it just me or when Jacob was walking back from throwing MIB in the river...the water at that Jacob stopped at to rinse his face was moving backwards?

RavenWood
05-12-2010, 02:34 PM
"The Rules" were not explained... Nothing was explained except a seemingly inconsistent answer to who adam and eve were...

One comment that young MiB made to Jacob was interesting and will come up again, I think. While they were playing the game MiB had found, He said something about when Jacob finds the game, Jacob gets to make up the rules.


Okay, here's my theory on this:

The lolwell is really a collection of souls. The Mother implied this when she said it contained an energy that's inside all of us. The lolwell is where the Mother originally got her understanding and powers. When Jacob throws the MiB into the lolwell, he gets bombarded with these souls, stripping his own mortal form away, but leaving him as a manipulator of the dead. He can take on the forms of the dead (the first being himself) because he's been touched by these souls... The island as purgatory?

silentounce
05-12-2010, 02:36 PM
I want to know why MiB didn't fight back at the end. He just let Jacob drag him along and then throw him down. WTF?

MiB definitely appeared to be the bigger and stronger of the two.

It just didn't make sense.

He had no problem with stabbing mommy dearest. I can understand him not wanting to hurt Jacob because he's his brother. But that doesn't mean he can't make him stop dragging him around.

zonker
05-12-2010, 02:37 PM
The bottom line is that if you put every great story UNDER A MICROSCOPE then yes, you will find flaws or inconsistencies.

A microscope? Mr Magoo could see the inconsistencies. Or too put it another way they could be found with no hands, no mirror and no road map.
That said "Lost" is what it is and we're all here for the duration. My guess is the TPTB are hoping that some surprising twist(s?) and a very dramatic resolution of the fate of the Losties will make people for get about 6 yrs of mythos building and all the unexplained weirdness and inconsistencies.

But lets work with what we've got

I believe we now have to split the MiB character into three

1) MiB: The character from birth to immersion in the glow. This character
is "special" in that he knows thing like how to play the game and how to
build a hydro-luminescent system that channels the glow. He also knows how
to lie. Also he can see his dead mom and Jacob can"t. His Mom says Jacob
can"t see her because she is dead but like Hugo MiB can. What made him
special? Was Locke special in similiar way too? (knowing things) Is Hugo (sees dead people) or anyone else?

2) Smokey: the character from immersion in the glow until being bonded to
Locke's form.

3) Flocke: The character from taking Locke's form and acting a lot like Locke.

The Mom like MiB and his later incarnations is an accomplished liar and boy do we have a lot of those on the Island. Sawyer is a conman, Kate gave her husband a totally bogus identity and Ben is a terrific liar and come to think of it Eloise, Widmore, Sun and Jin were pretty good at it too. Lots of lying going on. Lying is a great way to get out of previous clues too. "Oh that character was lying when he told them that". Even Hugo began lying about what Jacob said. Desmond is pretty honest.

Oh and lets not forget all the lying done on the commercials this season. They've been saying "the time for answers is now" for like 10 weeks and
there has been very little answering and still more questions.

Baycie
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Was anyone else reminded of the suitcase from Pulp Fiction?

BeachBabe
05-12-2010, 02:48 PM
Don't know about your theory on the 'others'. Looked an awful lot like Sawyers stabbing that boar to me.

I really think they were just the people who ship wrecked with Claudia. Definitely not any of our main characters.

Dmoney517
05-12-2010, 02:49 PM
Personally, I have enjoyed every episode of this show from day 1. Some are better than others. Some have more action, others have more character development and dialogue, but they are all always good. Some of you are so damn picky about this show. Its like if TPTB don't give you precisely what YOU think should happen you tart to bitch and complain about how bad the show is.

Wuold you really like it if everything was wrapped up with a nice pretty bow and all questions/theories answered nice and neatly? I don't want that. That isnt LOST. LOST is questions. LOST is theories. LOST is crazy specualtion. That is what made this show what it is and got it this crazy cult following. If they went into season 6 not posing any more questions and just answering every question it would be awful. There would be no discussion, because there would be nothing to discuss.

Everyone needs to just calm down, sit back, and enjoy these last few episodes, because who knows when another show is going to come around that sparks such an insane following and all the discussion and theorizing that LOST has.

zonker
05-12-2010, 02:59 PM
They explained all this stuff, you just gotta use your brain and infer a little bit.

Obviously the stuff your smoking is way better than mine.

While your at it can you tell us the fate of Tony Soprano?

Maybe the TPTB know that no one explanation will satisfy everyone so they
are leaving things vague so people can infer what they want.

But lets theorize some more

The Crazy Lady is just one link in a long line of people the Island (the glow?) has been bringing there to play a role When Claudia asks how the Crazy Lady go there she says "The same way you got here, by accident". Thats if we believe her, she does also say there is nothing across the sea.

Scruff
05-12-2010, 03:02 PM
The light is omnium.
We don't need an overwrought explanation.

However I do feel elements of this episode were handled very clumsily.

I always knew there wouldn't be clear cut answers, I don't even mind them introducing story elements this late in the show that clearly won't be answered.

I do mind the way they felt shoehorned in, they could've made a better attempt a making these aspects of the story more cohesive, at the moment they feel like a bad fit for the show I've been watching.
I don't have a problem with the story in this episode, just the way it was handled.

jj_short
05-12-2010, 03:07 PM
When I was watching last night, I looked away from the screen for a split second right when MiB was watching his mother/kidnapper die after he stabbed her. He makes a tiny little grunt noise there, but after re-winding it a few times, I'm pretty sure the grunt sounds a lot like "Lilith" and the sound doesn't even match the movement of his mouth.

Can anybody offer a second opinion after re-watching that sequence?

zonker
05-12-2010, 03:10 PM
I always knew there wouldn't be clear cut answers,

Really I only started to suspect this late last season


I don't even mind them introducing story elements this late in the show that clearly won't be answered.

I do, I really do, its cheesy.


I do mind the way they felt shoehorned in, they could've made a better attempt a making these aspects of the story more cohesive, at the moment they feel like a bad fit for the show I've been watching.
I don't have a problem with the story in this episode, just the way it was handled

I said before its like Lindelof and Cuse are like two children with a jigsaw puzzle that is too hard for them and they are trying to force pieces together

Ranokel
05-12-2010, 03:13 PM
My theory about the light-stuff: if there is golden light, the light that's the source to life and good, I bet there is also the darkness down that tunnel, the darkness that's the source to death and evil.

I think the light-stuff makes perfect sense if you combine it with Jacob's explanation of the island being something like the cork to keep evil out. I bet both, light and darkness, have their sources down that tunnel.

And that's why you shouldn't go down there. You don't only find light, but you release the darkness. In the form of smoke. And releasing evil into the world definitely is worse than just dying, isn't it?

markb455
05-12-2010, 03:16 PM
JACOB.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markgs455/4601487248/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1395/4601487248_919116986f_b.jpg

Dmoney517
05-12-2010, 03:17 PM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

I feel sorry for you for not being able to enjoy anything. You just complain and complain. You are like the ungrateful teenage child. Someone takes such great care of you for so long and the second they dont buy you a new toy that you really wanted you go running away and telling everyone that there was a great injustice done to you. but in reality, your just a spoiled little kid who thinks the world revolves around you. Grow Up.

dgb100
05-12-2010, 03:21 PM
Didn't read everything, but Jacob MiB are playing out the man of science man of faith duality again. MiB has the urge to know, build, see, Jacob is content to live his sheltered, routine, yet secure, life doing what his elders tell him he is to do. This is very much in line with the Garden of Eden mythos, once man fell no man would ever be able to return and it is guarded by angels (I think). That is why MiB, Sawyer, Locke, Rousseau, etc could never find it directly. I'm sure the voices or smokey distracted them when they got too close. I think Crazy Mama was just another guardian in a long line of guardians. Pretty sure she was the smoke the monster, although I'm not sure why she would appear to MiB and give him the information he got. Once he killed mom and was tossed into the pit he became the smoke monster/guardian. Mom obviously knew what would happen if anyone entered the pool/pit becuase she had done it. (that's my story, I'm sticking with it!).

I don't think we're getting any real answers to the island's purprose directly, but we may throught the resolution of the Losties stories. Anyway, found in interesting and gave a much better insight into Jacob and MiB. Jacob is a bit of a dolt in this one!

The_Loophole
05-12-2010, 03:22 PM
It's a piece of a land out at sea, but that's not important right now...

...and don't call me Shirley!


Maybe MIBīs name wasnīt revealed because it is the answer/solution to all the secrets/mysteris of LOST? ;) Ever thought of that? :eek:

And be patient guys. There are still 3 episodes left! More than enough time...!

Dmoney517
05-12-2010, 03:24 PM
Great episode, yes. Revealing, not so much. And that's what makes Lost great. That sense of ambiguity, the fact that not everything has to have a perfect answer. It'll be nice when the show is over and you will be able to debate it without being forcefed answers. You people just get crazy about every little thing it's ridiculous. Why is there a light? Why does the light have power? Why does it have to be protected? Who made the light? Who made the thing that made the light? How come it's light and not dark? Why is the light so bright? You see, it was awesome when the woman said "Every question answered will lead to more questions" and they're absolutely right.
They didn't say that because the show will lead to more questions, but because fans question everything. There has to be a point where they say "This is how it is, end of story, like it or not". Not everyone will like that, but sometimes, as a parent to a child, you just have to tell them how it is.



Very well said.

James4
05-12-2010, 03:28 PM
I liked the episode overall but would have preferred more definitive answers. I didnt mind the whole cave light thing although it could have been made more discrete as you would think someone might have noticed as massive light shining in the woods at some point

It felt a bit silly for the pretend mother to be so held back with the answers towards Jacob and MIB at this late stage it would have been better for her to come out and explain the light directly, you would think that the guy who is going to be protecting the Island and the light for the next two thousand years or so would need to know how someone could distinguish it and what the consequences would be if they did. I dont see what she gains through being ambiguos about these things.

It was also left unclear why Jacob feels he has to prevent his brother from leaving. MIB dosnt seem like he is inherently evil the only person he killed was the Woman who had murdered his real mother and had prevented him from leaving the island for years. Once Jacob throws him into the light he becomes bodyless but could still be possible for him to leave and there is no reason it would be such a bad thing. So it seems like Jacob is only keeping him trapped on the island as revenge for killing a Woman who had murdered their mother. The only other reason would be if MIB is now connected to the island and by leaving would cause disatrous things to happen but then the problem with this is that Jacob didnt even know what would happen to MIB in the light cave.

I wasnt too keen on the adam and eve reveal either the flashbacks to series 1 seemed a bit obvious and should have just been left to the fans to get the reference, casual viewers from the first series have probably forgotten all about adam and eve anyway.

My main problem with the episode is that it felt like it could have been so much better going into it, it seemed as if we were going to find out the beginnings of the Jacob vs MIB rivalry where we would see some rift between the two creating the current sides, but this just seemed to show that MIB isnt really that much of a bad guy afterall it is only after being trapped on the island for hundreds of years that he becomes truly bad and Jacob isnt really a good guy just someone forced into the job of protector which is a bit disappointing considering how keen Locke was to protect the island you would have thought that the overall protector would have been similar and at least know what would happen if he dosnt protect it.

dimsum
05-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Here are my random thoughts:

1) There's obviously lots of unanswered background information that we will never get but for the purpose of Lost, the story begins with Jacob and MIB. People who are "special" get drawn to the island one way or another to be a candidate. How or why they are special (example: Walt) is part of this greater background info we will never be told.

2) Crazy Mom was a candidate and was ultimately chosen to guard the island. Probably one in a long line of people. She summoned the ship in order to have Jacob and MIB as candidates, the rest of the crew became red shirts.

3) I believe Smokey always inhabited the island and co-existed or had a symbiotic relationship with the protector of the island.

NOTE: The common belief is that Smokey takes on emotions and memories of host bodies. The rest of the points below can be explained by that phenomenon. It's as if Smokey has no mind of it's own, but carries out the true wishes of the people whom he possesses.

4) Smokey inhabited birth mother to lure MIB back to his real people. I believe at this point Smokey didn't have the desire to leave the island. The true desire of Birth Mom is to bring her kids back to the group. I belive she approached MIB because he truly was special therefore being able to see her. Jacob was too good or naive to believe her and would only go running back to CrazyMom. As it was implied in last night's episode, I think MIB was the leading candidate to become Protector but because he turned on them, Jacob was Plan B. I feel that Jack is Plan B as well since he doesn't possess any special powers.

5) Somehow because of this symbiotic relationship Smokey and Protector have, Crazy Mom summoned Smokey to destroy the well and kill everyone else. At this point in the story, Smokey doesn't feel what MIB feels which is to leave the island. Therefore it destroyed the work of MIB because Smokey will kill whatever is threatening it/the island. MIB did not die at the hands of Crazy Mom because she made it so a candidate cannot die.

6) Once Jacob drank the wine and became Protector, he was able to kill MIB because the island no longer has a need for MIB.

7) When MIB fell into the light only then it become more 'evil' because MIB was consumed with anger. It also was the turning point for Smokey to want to leave the island.

Forgot to add 8) As protector Jacob is able to make up rules (hence the foreshadowing in last night's episode). I think the original purpose of protecting the island was merely protecting the light and possibly protecting Smokey from leaving because the Protectors knew that as it inhabited more bodies the more evil it becomes. As is the light is in all of us, so is evil. They probably allowed Smokey to kill red shirts on the island because it was a small price to pay to find candidates, but once unleashed to the world it can become more and more evil as it inhabits more people.

It doesn't answer everything, but these theories provide more sense to last night's episode

Phikappatauox
05-12-2010, 03:51 PM
here are a couple thoughts i've been pondering...

1. perhaps the cave with the light is like jacob's cabin. it is not rooted to one place on the island, but rather it moves around? maybe you cannot go there unless you are led there by the "protector of the island" and/or are a candidate.

2. i think the smoke monster is truly the man-in-black that we saw as jacob's brother. he was shown as being originally human, with emotions and a family (as he told sawyer), with one final goal towards the end: get off the island. i think this goal and his LOOOONG imprisonment on the island (if you'll call it that) has twisted him into something worse. he still has that one goal that he had as a man, but he's more willing to do more now to achieve this goal. sort of along the lines of smeagol/gollum in LotR being twisted over the many many years confined with the ring. i mean, who wouldn't go a little crazy being trapped on an island for hundreds of years knowing you cannot leave?!

zonker
05-12-2010, 03:54 PM
2. i think the smoke monster is truly the man-in-black that we saw as jacob's brother. he was shown as being originally human, with emotions and a family (as he told sawyer), with one final goal towards the end: get off the island. i think this goal and his LOOOONG imprisonment on the island (if you'll call it that) has twisted him into something worse. he still has that one goal that he had as a man, but he's more willing to do more now to achieve this goal. sort of along the lines of smeagol/gollum in LotR being twisted over the many many years confined with the ring. i mean, who wouldn't go a little crazy being trapped on an island for hundreds of years knowing you cannot leave?!

Don't tell what I can"t do......The more they try to keep him on the Island the more he wants to get off.

zonker
05-12-2010, 04:01 PM
, I think MIB was the leading candidate to become Protector but because he turned on them, Jacob was Plan B. I feel that Jack is Plan B as well since he doesn't possess any special powers.e

So Locke was the leading candidate and now he is smokey. He seemed to know things and "don't tell him what he can't do"

Prior seeing to the MiB becoming smokey it seemed that it could only mimic
people who died off Island like Locke and Shepard.

By the way I don't think all ghosts are smokey. Richards wife told him to stop smokey but maybe that was part of the plan. They didn't need to proactively stop him they just needed to stay onthe Island and stay alive

Scruff
05-12-2010, 04:01 PM
Really I only started to suspect this late last season



I do, I really do, its cheesy.



I said before its like Lindelof and Cuse are like two children with a jigsaw puzzle that is too hard for them and they are trying to force pieces together

The show has its own internal logic, this has been obvious from the beginning and typically when they show revealed answers there were more questions. I was okay with this.
The MiB is evil incarnate, The Island is a cork. Fair enough. But this episode wedged things in and didn't seem to know which stand to stand on.
As opposed to an answer leading to more questions I felt this episode only served to muddle and confuse things, something I put down to poor story-telling rather than a poor story.

jc050604
05-12-2010, 04:03 PM
"Or Jacob's brother's soul was turned into the smoke monster/MiB, which left some elements of his personality integrated into the smoke monster. "

^^ I think this is right. I don't think Jacob and the boy/man in black were capable of killing each other, so I think MiB was alive when he went into the light. Their mother explained that a little bit of the same light that is in the cave is inside every man but that people always want more. I think that a person going into the light in the cave represents man's greed and desire to always have more. So by going in, he has released this force which represents all the negative aspects of man's nature. I think the force still retains the MiB's soul and memories, so in a sense it's still the MiB, just like in a sense, it's still Locke.

"The Candidate" showed that MiB is the antagonist. He wants the candidates dead. He's a bad guy. This episode showed that the original MiB wasn't evil at all. He got sort of a raw deal. So I think MiB/Smokey is a different entity.

The mother also said that while other people can't take the light, they might try and if the light goes out here it goes out everywhere. I think that means that Smokey leaving the island is the same as people trying to "take the light". If he leaves, then the light - life's sustaining force or the innate goodness in man - goes out.

Overall, I didn't find the episode all that satisfying, but I also think it's a little cliche to just whine about the answers we weren't given. They can't just answer questions for an entire episode, they still have to tell a story. And it was a pretty compelling one, even if it was a little trite at times (swathing babies in white and black, no name for MiB, etc.) It's not exactly the story I hoped for, but I sort of like that a lot of it is open to interpretation.

My take - I think we can infer from that episode that Jacob got some sort of protector power from drinking the wine that was "blessed" by his mother and with that, he gained the ability to see off-island and search for candidates/construct the lighthouse, etc. We don't see him and the MiB sitting down and listing off the rules - Jacob has developed them just like his brother predicted when he said that one day Jacob can make up his own game and then everyone will have to follow his rules, and the MiB does know the rules. It's a little bit of a shame that we don't, but we know the important one - MiB can't kill directly candidates. We don't really need to know more than that. I also don't think it matters if Mother was the first protector or where she came from. She's just another in the line, as is Jacob and as is whomever is the Candidate - my money's on Jack.

Even though I thought Jacob came off as a bit of a doofus for most of the episode, I think he learned and is serving his mother's role in his own way. She was looking for candidates herself and found one when the pregnant woman washed ashore. She knew she could groom the baby (what turned out to be babies) to replace her. But she bashed the mother's face in and didn't really give the babies a choice. Jacob's search for a candidate seems to be based on allowing them to choose to be his replacement rather than the more brute force way his Mother gave it to him.

The thing that didn't make as much sense to me was why she wouldn't let the MiB leave. I think she killed his people because they were getting too close to reaching the light, which would cause it to go out. I understand that he can't be allowed to leave now because it would be catastrophic, but before he went into the well, I don't see what harm it would do to have him leave the island. Was it just because she loved him and didn't want him to go?

My other biggest complaint is that this episode did nothing to deal with the flash sideways. The multiple timeline and time traveling issue wasn't touched on at all. And if part of Smokey's loophole was dependent on it (i.e., having Locke go back and convince Richard he was to be their leader so he could later get in and stab Jacob), then I think they could have at least alluded to it or mentioned it. But I think that's the big reveal of the season, so they're saving it. We'll see.

Franklost
05-12-2010, 04:10 PM
humm i actually forgot that MiB is dead. he was not the evil one, what became smoky is the true evil, antagonist of the show that we know. but i don't see why they can't kill each other??? no rules were ever explained to us. from what i saw there is no reason smoky can't kill Jacob. did i miss something?

So why wants the Smoke monster (after he incarnated in the dead Jacob's brother) said Jacob didnt want him to leave, but he always wanted? Wasn't that the point of the real MiB? The smoke monster shouldnt have any human emotions of purposes he wants at all. Or was that just to let Jacob believe it still was really him, but the real point was that he just wants to let escape the EVIL from the Island (him).

Also... I expected a vulcano in this episode ;)

dj_cityboy
05-12-2010, 04:12 PM
seems like a lot of people are upset over lastnights episode, which is understandable based on what peoples expectations are....i thought the episode was great and i have tried not to expect a lot from the show during this season and i still dont know what to expect in the end, the way i look at it is in my opinion it has been the best show i have ever seen on tv for the most part and regardless of which way it ends or if we find out the island is a small rock in some kids shoe, i got what i wanted out of it.i have been watching since the pilot episodes and cant say that i have been disappointed with anything that i have seen.

its obvious people have always been passionate about the show, but some people take it a bit to far, i tried not to come around since the start of the 6th season, but why need for more lost keeps me coming back....

so here is a bit of an offtopic question, what the heck is going to happen to all the "lost fan" sites, theres like 1000's of em, although i only care about the hugely popular ones (lostpedia, ODI, darkufo, docarzt..etc) are Lost theories going to keep these places active forever? i find the wiki here is second to none and would hate to come here in a year from now and find it gone and this site...

Yankee
05-12-2010, 04:14 PM
I just rewatched it again, and a few other things caught my attention. First of all, Mother spoke Latin with an uber-thick North American English accent, I mean cmon, she couldn't at least make an effort to roll those R's for the 3 lines she had in Latin? And then in a dialogue, the boy in black asks her what "dead" means and I get why they did that, but the next scene is him and Jacob hunting down a boar with spears, did they really not know the meaning of the word dead?

So many inconsistencies + bad acting thruout this episode, just ruined its believability. I don't expect it to be all that historically accurate, but it was a little too much.

OurMutualFriend
05-12-2010, 04:17 PM
Just a couple of things as well...

Was it Jacob breaking a rule i.e. hurting MIB that fused MIB to Smokie? and is this why MIB tries not to break the rules as he fears creating another Smokie or something else as powerful as himself?

What exactly is stopping MIB from leaving? is it another rule i.e. Jacob and all the candidates must be dead and if so did Jacob himself make up that rule. Jacob has left the island many times leaving MIB on the Island doing whatever he wanted.

Also does one of the Losties now have Jacob's special powers but they just aren't aware of it? or do they need a special drink to be the new Island protector.

GeorgeIsLost
05-12-2010, 04:36 PM
At this point there is simply no way for them to end Lost without it turning out to be a huge disappointment, a six year scam.

What's sad is so many people will be satisfied. They get shit smeared on their face, but because it's shit from someone they loved for six years, they're happy to smear it all over, sniff it, and eat it up while savoring every little shit-chunk. Anyone who loved tonight's episode has a case of Stockholm Syndrome worse than Jacob's. You've been kidnapped by "Lost" for 6 years and it can do no wrong. The show could end with a little green alien popping out of Jack's head and saying it has been controlling everyone and everything, and the Island is really just his planet, and you'd spew nothing but how brilliant that is.

If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

Wow! Such passion in your comments. Although I do feel that you went a bit overboard with your judgemental comment (because everyone is entitled to their opinions, critiques, likes/dislikes), I do feel your pain. I posted earlier in this thread that we've been taken for a ride. I followed LOST for 6 long years. Throughout the series I feel some episodes I could've done without, but I still loved the show...it's whole mystery and characters. After last night's eposide, like you, I'm extremely disappointed and let down. I just stated in this post that everyone's entitled to their opinions, but I have to say this. Ater last night's episode, I called and talked to all my fan buddies of the show, NOT ONE liked the episode. So, like you my friend, I wonder what is it that some might have liked about this episode. My wife, who has also been a faithful watcher and who has liked episodes I've considered weak and lame, finally agreed with me on this...yesterday's episode was very poor in everyway: the follow up, the explainations, the plotline, the reasonings and even the acting.

snipersb23
05-12-2010, 04:49 PM
What exactly is stopping MIB from leaving? is it another rule i.e. Jacob and all the candidates must be dead and if so did Jacob himself make up that rule. Jacob has left the island many times leaving MIB on the Island doing whatever he wanted.


The light is holding him to the island. The only way to extinguish the light is to kill the protector and all the candidates. That is how Smokey knew the candidates hadn't all died in the sub explosion, the light was still holding him.

snipersb23
05-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Way back in Season 1 Locke encountered (presumably) the Smoke Monster and said "I looked into the eye of the Island, and what I saw was beautiful". Well now we can assume that he was shown the light. Kind of a cool tie in to that comment which never made much sense until now.

silentounce
05-12-2010, 04:56 PM
And then in a dialogue, the boy in black asks her what "dead" means and I get why they did that, but the next scene is him and Jacob hunting down a boar with spears, did they really not know the meaning of the word dead?

Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one that caught that. I was thinking WTF?

rezeero
05-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Just to say that I hated the season 1 flashback and I pray it will be edited out in the dvd version. Other than that, seemed a good episode to me. ^^

Drink Dharma Beer
05-12-2010, 05:02 PM
Then there's the whole part where boy in black wants to go live amongst his people, but later on shows contempt for them. When Jacob asks why he stays with them he says its a means to an end. To what end? So that he can get off the island, but for what purpose? So he can live out his life amongst the people he hates?

He sees their flaws, but also knows that he is one of them and has these same flaws himself. He doesn't feel he is "special" like their adoptive mother convinced Jacob.

Hoof
05-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Just a connection I made, sorry if it has already been posted, I didn't find it

- First there was Jacob's mother alone.

- Jacob's mother gave the wine to Jacob, and she said "we are now the same", so she gave Jacob his powers.

- Jacob's mother dies after being stabbed with a Knife

Then

- There is Jacob alone

- Jacob gives Richard the wine to drink, now Richard is immortal just like Jacob and his mother.

- Jacob dies after being stabbed with a Knife


Richard is the new protector? :P

lilibi
05-12-2010, 05:05 PM
why you guys keep calling them adam & eve, adam & eve were a couple, and the relation this two had was like mom ans son. also, jacob is not that much good neither, as he kicked his brother 2 times as the other one did fight back, and also he obviously feels envy from his brother...as he said she loves him more and you wanted him to take care of the light...so for me his also not good or at least not that purely good.

Drink Dharma Beer
05-12-2010, 05:10 PM
why you guys keep calling them adam & eve

Did you turn of the TV before the final scene? It was the scene from season one when Kate and Jack first find the skeletons and Locke refers to them as Adam and Eve.

gripweed
05-12-2010, 05:25 PM
I understand why there is disappointment. I was disappointed with the fact that more wasn't revealed. I think in the end that this was the reason most didn't enjoy this episode.

Another reason that people are disappointed is the way that this series began. It was new different and spectacular. It seems to me that the high expectations were bound to make some disappointed.

If you really hate what you are seeing so much, stop watching. It is really that simple.

I enjoyed the episode although it was certainly not my favorite this season.

I have a feeling that the last episode is going to be spectacular, but maybe I shouldn't set myself up for a big disappointment.

Hurley
05-12-2010, 05:52 PM
I just got back from ABC.com and the tag line under the vid for ATS reads..

"Locke's motives are finally explained" WTH?! Does ABC/Disney even know what the episodes are about?

fengshui
05-12-2010, 05:56 PM
LOL at all you people for thinking Darlton would give you any straightforward answers. I think we can all expect to still be scratching our collective heads about a great many things when all is said and done. We should all just be thankful we have had this wonderful story to keep us interested for the last six years. It has been one helluva ride and I thank all the creators for giving us this masterpiece amidst all of the CRAP that passes for TV nowadays. Now, sit back and enjoy the ride. I, for one, can't wait to see how it all pans out. No matter how cryptic and obtuse it may turn out to be.

Side-Flash
05-12-2010, 06:09 PM
What ever Jacob Created by tossing his Bro down the well has yet to be told.

The Light went out, the waters dim, Smokey appeared and Jacob was un-phased by it all.

I also thought I hear Mother Call Smoky Jose after he stabbed her? Can someone confirm this?

I am pretty displeased as some are as well with the Funky Bright Light at the end of the Creek. Shesh WTF is that about

I guess we all can wait until next week to sit through 2 hours of Totally Screwed up the Ending Season Final :rolleyes:

Headcase
05-12-2010, 06:16 PM
But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.

Man, you are the one who sounds "depressed and pissed off". I'm not a religious person but I sure see a lot of people on this board rant and rave against them.

Let me take a wild guess here that you may be one of the youngsters on this board, because I've heard that it is the least religious generation that's ever been spawned. If I'm right, I bet I'm also right in guessing that you probably spend an inordinate amount of time playing video games and smoking weed. These are the "the two most intoxicating...substances known" to your generation. Every generation has something that they use in this manner.

Side-Flash
05-12-2010, 06:27 PM
Man, you are the one who sounds "depressed and pissed off". I'm not a religious person but I sure see a lot of people on this board rant and rave against them.

Let me take a wild guess here that you may be one of the youngsters on this board, because I've heard that it is the least religious generation that's ever been spawned. If I'm right, I bet I'm also right in guessing that you probably spend an inordinate amount of time playing video games and smoking weed. These are the "the two most intoxicating...substances known" to your generation. Every generation has something that they use in this manner.

Smoke and Mirrors

Personally I think Armageddon is going to be Sept 13 2024 at 11:36:12 am

Wow, not point at you, but to everyone involved in this battle of twits. Geez its a freaking show

Besides I doubt either one of you have the balls to say things like this face to face. The wonder of Intwa-Net

BTW, I got the balls, test me

Lostie360
05-12-2010, 06:37 PM
I can answer some of those:

1.) The light is the essence of life/the island/the world, just like Jacob's mother said.

2.) You try to explain why MiB turned into Smokey when thrown into the light. We don't need a "midichlorian" explanation for that.

3.) Doesn't matter how she knew. All that matters is Jacob and MiB's struggle. As TPTB said, not everything will be answered, including the history of the island before Jacob and his brother.

4.) Again, doesn't matter.

5.) Maybe she was crazy, but I doubt it.

6.) I was thinking that maybe she was the smoke monster, and that by dying (just like Dogen said, without saying a word to her), she was no longer Smokey.

7.) We don't need a rational explanation for everything. Especially this. THe light is magic, maybe? It doesn't really matter.

8.) MiB wasn't evil. He just wanted to leave. By living with those people, he saw how evil they were, how evil the people were. And now, after who knows how many years, he's crazy about leaving, and is willing to kill any of what he believes to be evil people in order to do it.

A lot of the episode was left up to interpretation. Personally, I liked that, since we can all argue over what really happened, but I can see why you'd be angry.

I'm kind of on board with Strokedown here. I wasn't very satisfied with the whole magic light thing and some of the other "unsolved mysteries" people are pointing fingers at. But, to the overall story of LOST, none of those things are really that important. All we need to know is that, whatever the light is, it would be catastrophic if the wrong hands harnessed it. Lost is, after all, about the survivors of Flight 815. The battle between Jacob and MIB is obviously an important subplot and we now know the reason for their feud. Once the writers/producers start going down other roads - how did the FDW room finally get constructed, how did the Mother kill all those people and bury the well all by herself in such a short period of time, etc. - it becomes easy to go off on too many tangents and stray from the main storyline. Like the mother said in the beginning, one question will only lead to another. Although, I'd love to know all that info, it's kind of a whole other story. Prequel anyone?

I also find myself sympathizing with MIB in this episode. I no longer see him as completely evil. So, I'm wondering if him getting off the island will really be all that bad. Yeah, he's pretty ruthless on the island, but it's only because he wants to be off the island. Once he's off, wouldn't he just be the same guy he was before he became the Smoke Monster? Or is it because, when he came to the light (ala Carol Ann) and became the Smoke Monster, he now carries the power of the light with him?

I also like the theory that the mother was a smoke monster herself, which would explain her ability to take all the OG others out so easily. Was she playing Jacob and MIB the same way FLocke is now playing the candidates? Maybe she ultimately wanted MIB to kill her and, by dying, she freed herself. After all, she claimed to have known the OG others were on the island, so why didn't she just take them out to begin with? It suggests to me that she may have planned things this way. This is all just wild speculation on my part, of course.

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 06:37 PM
If you think this was a great, revealing episode, I feel sorry for you. Some people just have no expectations. Maybe in a perverse sense I kinda envy those people... no matter what they're always satisfied. But the people I've personally known who are like that are always religious nuts who spend their days drunk off of cheep beer and generic vodka babbling about Jesus. So, while their low standards give them the singular benefit of seeming content with everything, deep down inside I think they're really angry and depressed and pissed off. So they resort to the two most intoxicating (and ironically legal) substances known to man - ethanol and religion - to dull their pain.


I'm sorry that you have some deep rooted bitterness towards "religious" people, even if you have met "Jesus" people who weren't sincere in their profession of faith (which means they're not really Christians).

I still don't understand how that has anything to do with enjoying an episode of a show; it's actually irrelevant. Alot of what you said was just blatant misconception and untrue. :(

I could, however, sympathize with your dissatisfaction with the show. I've only been watching the show for the past few months (I caught up all at once before season 6 started)... so I'm not as "invested" in it as some of you who have been for 6 years.

Shadis
05-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Here's my super-secret mind-blowing ultra-twisty didn't-see-it-coming Lost ending: Everyone dies and the island is destroyed, but Widmore escapes with the last remaining piece of the "Source". Which he puts in a briefcase and delivers to Marsellus Wallace.

:D

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 06:52 PM
Then where is Isaac and Rebecca? Isn't Jacob's mom "Claudia"? Nope. I'm seeing less and less likely that the biblical theory of Jacob/Esau will get fleshed out here.

But don't feel bad. I thought the island was the real Jeremy Bentham's Panopticon. Boy, do I feel sheepish.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/bgr0159l.jpg


Well, obviously you can't take everything in the show literally to apply to the biblical account.

I'm just saying there is an inference to it. The writers often allude to some kind of theme but don't go along with it 100%. You can see that in many areas of the show, there are just allusions being made.

I'm not saying that it is completely parallel... just that it is clear that it is very similar (two twins, one steals birthright [protection of island-ability to come and go when he pleases], war ensues, etc.)

I think Ben Linus is also an allusion to Benjamin, one of the sons of Jacob/Israel. His mother died at his birth, named him Benjamin which means "Son of my sorrow"...

The garden of eden and river of life references with wine (symbol of blood of Jesus) that gives you eternal life.... I mean those are some pretty big allusions.. judgment after death, etc.

But yes, I agree with you. It doesn't agree 100%... I don't think they would do that for obvious reasons (it already happened!)

karika1999
05-12-2010, 06:55 PM
I just rewatched it again, and a few other things caught my attention. First of all, Mother spoke Latin with an uber-thick North American English accent, I mean cmon, she couldn't at least make an effort to roll those R's for the 3 lines she had in Latin? And then in a dialogue, the boy in black asks her what "dead" means and I get why they did that, but the next scene is him and Jacob hunting down a boar with spears, did they really not know the meaning of the word dead?

So many inconsistencies + bad acting thruout this episode, just ruined its believability. I don't expect it to be all that historically accurate, but it was a little too much.

I think the protector of the island can speak whatever language is appropriate. The boys seemed genuinely disturbed when the men stabbed the boar. They were simply chasing the boar for fun, like children chase their dog or cat, not to kill it. The sticks they were carrying were not sharp (I just went to check) Most likely, they were vegetarians since it would be an easy way to eat on an island that abundant with fruit and vegetation. Also, vegetarianism is more closely associated with spiritualism.

batdown
05-12-2010, 06:59 PM
Also, vegetarianism is more closely associated with spiritualism.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

KNOWLEDGE
05-12-2010, 07:04 PM
I likes it. I'll agree the acting in the first half wasn't great, and I didn't like Jacob as a whiny mothers boy, but

Answers given to :

The FDW,
Adam and Eve,
How MiB became the monster,
The electromagnetic properties of the island (the light)
Jacob and MiB being brothers.

I'm probabily missing more.

And I don't care in the slightest that the answers given were'nt spelled out, like how a wheel could channel the light, because its science fiction, there is literally no explination, it cannot happen, so just enjoy it.

The only thing I wanted to see which I didn't was the statue in the process of being built.



One thing I don't get, why does Jacob decide he doesn't want MiB to leave the island? Is it because he's became the smoke monster and considers him too powerful for the outside world??

Chrislpp
05-12-2010, 07:08 PM
What wasn't answered.


How the Wheel gets there in the end
How the statute Jacob lives in gets built
Jacob's cabin origin

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 07:10 PM
*was it just me or when Jacob was walking back from throwing MIB in the river...the water at that Jacob stopped at to rinse his face was moving backwards?

Yes, I'd have to check.. but I think I noticed that too.

Everything changed after Jacob's twin went into the light river. Kind of reminded me of what happened after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit... everything got all messed up and backwards...

This also might explain why the Losties couldn't see the light in that cave (Wasnt that cave where the light river was originally?) Alot of the light in that "secret" place was diminished after the twin got thrown in. Now all there is is a fountain in its place.. the cave where everyone lived in season 1.

Dmoney517
05-12-2010, 07:12 PM
What wasn't answered.


How the Wheel gets there in the end
How the statute Jacob lives in gets built
Jacob's cabin origin

We have seen Jacob's cabin being built. Horace was building as a place to escape with hiswife/girlfriend. Horace appeared to one of the Losties while constructing ti, but I can not remember who at this time.

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 07:13 PM
My theory about the light-stuff: if there is golden light, the light that's the source to life and good, I bet there is also the darkness down that tunnel, the darkness that's the source to death and evil.

I think the light-stuff makes perfect sense if you combine it with Jacob's explanation of the island being something like the cork to keep evil out. I bet both, light and darkness, have their sources down that tunnel.

And that's why you shouldn't go down there. You don't only find light, but you release the darkness. In the form of smoke. And releasing evil into the world definitely is worse than just dying, isn't it?

This was my first thought as well. Like the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Sorry, I'm really not just trying to make inferences to the Bible... it just seems so clear to me and unmistakable! If you know anything about the biblical historical narratives... then I think it would make much more sense as an allusion. If you're only vaguely familiar... well then please forgive me for sounding like a religious nut... maybe you're just historically illiterate. ;)

Drink Dharma Beer
05-12-2010, 07:15 PM
This also might explain why the Losties couldn't see the light in that cave (Wasnt that cave where the light river was originally?)

No, I think the "Adam and Eve" cave is where Jacob and his mother lived. My thought was that the present day temple may be built where the light cave was. Just a guess, of course.

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 07:16 PM
Just a connection I made, sorry if it has already been posted, I didn't find it

- First there was Jacob's mother alone.

- Jacob's mother gave the wine to Jacob, and she said "we are now the same", so she gave Jacob his powers.

- Jacob's mother dies after being stabbed with a Knife

Then

- There is Jacob alone

- Jacob gives Richard the wine to drink, now Richard is immortal just like Jacob and his mother.

- Jacob dies after being stabbed with a Knife


Richard is the new protector? :P

Very interesting!!!

"Richard will know what to do" - Illana as told by JACOB!

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 07:17 PM
No, I think the "Adam and Eve" cave is where Jacob and his mother lived. My thought was that the present day temple may be built where the light cave was. Just a guess, of course.


Yea, I think you're right about the cave. That makes sense.

m88
05-12-2010, 07:19 PM
I don't see why this episode couldn't have been shown in a previous season, it doesn't really explain anything. It's a backstory. The fact that they didn't show it earlier means there isn't much more to tell between that time and the present, which means the writers don't really have any explanations.

This show is turning into a poorly scripted Asian movie. There's this great premise and the story is unfolding nicely, but all of a sudden there's aliens or monsters coming out of nowhere and strange explanations that don't make any sense. Everything comes really fast and furious at the finish and you're left wondering what happened? Did the script writer quit? Did he develop a drug habit?

They had some decent themes running, hints of religious themes, some interesting concepts like time travel, but then they blew it up. It's like if they did a movie about Moses, and halfway through the Klingons come and blow up Egypt and the manna from heaven is Soylent Green and Moses travels back in time, Donnie Darko style, to a past where he fights the Transformers and Godzilla, but then you find out Moses is actually dead! The movie would end with Jack being in charge of the Israelites and Joshua injured his dural sac while fighting the Canaanites.

karika1999
05-12-2010, 07:20 PM
Jacob's brother finds a game. He plays it with Jacob. He says not to tell kidnapper because she will take it away. Jacob tells kidnapper. kidnapper says she put the game out for Jacob's brother to find. This is important somehow. Maybe it had to do with the fact that she was looking at the brother as her replacement and the game is a part of that? or to see which one could keep a secret since that would be important to protecting the light?

Drink Dharma Beer
05-12-2010, 07:20 PM
During the scene when Jacob's mother give Jacob the wine to drink I was thinking "uh oh, how is the new candidate going to drink the wine since MIB smashed the bottle?" But if Richard is Jacob's replacement, then what exactly are the candidates? Are they candidates to kill MIB?

jack be nimble
05-12-2010, 07:24 PM
"I looked into the eye of this Island, and what I saw... was beautiful." (Locke, "White Rabbit")

Thinking about this quote and relating it back to the Source provokes some interesting thoughts. Most likely, the quote is in reference to the Smoke Monster - but what if what Locke saw in the Monster some glimmer of the Source? What would the implications of this be? Interesting to wonder at.

The fact that Locke claims to have "looked into the eye of the Island" makes me believe one thing, once and for all, in light of this episode: Locke should have been the candidate to take over for Jacob.

It's easy to see that Jack and Jacob are filling parallel roles: both are reluctant to accept their fate as Protector. As we see in "Lighthouse," Jacob thoroughly understands what Jack is going through and seems to understand what it will take for Jack to reach the right conclusion. Their names are even similar, which I doubt is coincidental.

Locke and the Man in Black, share some parallels as well. Both are "special" and both probably should have been the Protector. In addition, the Man in Black now inhabits John's body. "Across the Sea" still leaves us wondering what his name was - Jonas, perhaps?

gripweed
05-12-2010, 07:24 PM
Also, vegetarianism is more closely associated with spiritualism.

I don't know enough about that to speak intelligently about it. What I do know regarding biblical allusions is that in the state of Eden (esp for those of you into the Eden theory) vegetable were the only thing that was eaten. It was only when things had gotten so bad because of original sin and the aftermath of Noah's Ark that GOD gave permission to eat animals.

kevindrz
05-12-2010, 07:36 PM
For what it's worth, I'm working on the assumption that Jacob and MIB's Fake Mother was a Smoke Monster (not to be confused with THE smoke moster). Based on what she said to Jacob near the Light, it was evident that she knew what happens when someone goes into it. Also, the buried well, the massacre at the camp...looks to me like a smoke monster did this, Watson.

withoutCHRISTweAREallLOST
05-12-2010, 07:41 PM
why you guys keep calling them adam & eve, adam & eve were a couple, and the relation this two had was like mom ans son. also, jacob is not that much good neither, as he kicked his brother 2 times as the other one did fight back, and also he obviously feels envy from his brother...as he said she loves him more and you wanted him to take care of the light...so for me his also not good or at least not that purely good.


We're calling them Adam and Eve because the SHOW calls them Adam and Eve. The writers chose to use that reference to make an allusion to the biblical account. We are just using the 'terms' the show uses as the context.

Obviously, we now know that they are not really adam and eve, they are the twin and his fake mom. However, that doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater... I think we can all concur at this point that the writers of LOST do not always speak in literal terms

myfourletterlie
05-12-2010, 07:51 PM
How did MIB explain his being there to the survivors?
I guess he probably just said he just crashed there or something.

berge
05-12-2010, 07:53 PM
Even though I had issues with some of the episode, there was a lot that I liked, and even though I know my questions will just lead to more questions...

1 - If Jacob drinking the wine made him the protector, and MiB smashed the wine, can there really be a new protector?

2 - I think you have to be a candidate or protector to find the "cave of light." MiB mentions that he looks for it for 30 years and never finds it. Lots of things are tough to find on the island (cabin, lighthouse?, etc)

3 - Safe to assume the temple is built around the cave of light? If so, significance of it being muddy after Jacob died?

4 - Is Ben's toilet thing where he can summon Smokey tied to the river of light?

5 - lol @ real mom wearing a red dress. Saw that death coming. :)

6 - Interesting that Jacob didn't really want the job of protector.

7 - Interesting how much fake mom lied - about other people on the island, nothing being beyond the sea, where the game came from (I think she lied since the truth would mean it came from "somewhere else"). Protectors of the island aren't necessarily "good," just stuck in a crappy job.

8 - I personally love the explanation of the rules - kind of a make-them-up-as-you-go type of game. I know this frustrates most people, but I don't mind.

9 - Love what a couple of people have said about the Pulp Fiction references. If we can buy light in a briefcase, surely we can buy light in a cave on an island, right?

10 - So Dharma isn't just some hippies looking for an island to live happy lives on... They are just like everyone else who comes to the island - they corrupt and aim to exploit the properties of the island...

mboss
05-12-2010, 08:01 PM
Right. And then Jacob gave the bottle to MIB. Was he attempting to trick him into drinking some of the wine so that he would have to assume his role as guardian of the light?

Anyone notice in Ab Abterno that Jacob gave a glass of wine to Richard to drink. But Richard never did drink it before Jacob touched him. Seems like they are both sick of being on the island. MIB wants to leave and Jacob wanted to die to have a replacement. Why else would he let Ben kill him?

karika1999
05-12-2010, 08:02 PM
"I looked into the eye of this Island, and what I saw... was beautiful." (Locke, "White Rabbit")

Thinking about this quote and relating it back to the Source provokes some interesting thoughts. Most likely, the quote is in reference to the Smoke Monster - but what if what Locke saw in the Monster some glimmer of the Source? What would the implications of this be? Interesting to wonder at.

The fact that Locke claims to have "looked into the eye of the Island" makes me believe one thing, once and for all, in light of this episode: Locke should have been the candidate to take over for Jacob.

It's easy to see that Jack and Jacob are filling parallel roles: both are reluctant to accept their fate as Protector. As we see in "Lighthouse," Jacob thoroughly understands what Jack is going through and seems to understand what it will take for Jack to reach the right conclusion. Their names are even similar, which I doubt is coincidental.

Locke and the Man in Black, share some parallels as well. Both are "special" and both probably should have been the Protector. In addition, the Man in Black now inhabits John's body. "Across the Sea" still leaves us wondering what his name was - Jonas, perhaps?

This is intriguing me as well. When Christian tells Locke- I told you to move the island not Ben.... maybe because Locke was still the replacement for island protector at that time. Ben was supposed to be the vessel for Smokie maybe.... can't wrap my mind on it now as I have had no sleep, but this may make the scenes with Locke and Christian make more sense with all the new info we have... still thinking some of the appearances of Christian were made by someone other than smokie, like Jacob.... I will just be happy to see how it all turns out at this point. I came late into the phenomenon at the end of season 4, but now I have seen them all I think and I liked all the thinking associated with the series. I do see many parallels to the true nature of reality as being exposed now through quantum physics. And I do certainly find myself analyzing any show I see in this way also funnily enough... like looking for continuity...

JeezLouise
05-12-2010, 08:16 PM
Personally it was unbelievable that Jacob would stay with CJ Craggs after knowing she killed Claudia. If I found out the person I thought was my momma killed my real momma, I would've shanked that b****!

Drink Dharma Beer
05-12-2010, 08:40 PM
If I found out the person I thought was my momma killed my real momma, I would've shanked that b****!

Yeah, but you have some context to put murder in. Jacob has only known his brother and the Allison Janney character for his entire life.

Headcase
05-12-2010, 08:41 PM
Besides I doubt either one of you have the balls to say things like this face to face. The wonder of Intwa-Net

Maybe. I don't really give a rat's ass!


BTW, I got the balls, test me

OK, go say it face-to-face to kaltkalt. He/she started it!! ;)

Paulo's Zombie
05-12-2010, 09:06 PM
Been thinking long and hard on this and here's my take. We know that MiB wants to leave the island, but mommy didn't want him to because she thought he was supposed to protect the light. Once she realized she lost MiB to the others, she turned to Jacob to be the protector. Jacob didn't want to do it, but had no choice. Plus, mommy conned him a little saying "it was always supposed to be you." I think Jacob used this to create his game in which he tries to get MiB to assume what he believes to be MiB's responsibility to protect the light. Jacob says that he wants people to be good, that he shouldn't have to manipulate them. While MiB says that all men are corruptible. Jacob brings people to the island to prove to MiB that there is good in people and that under the right circumstances, they will choose good. That would prove MiB wrong and possibly change his mind to leave the island. That's why when MiB says that everyone's corruptible, Jacob says it's just progress. Progress toward changing MiB's mind and thus accepting his responsibility to the island and allowing Jacob to step down.

zonker
05-12-2010, 09:18 PM
If you really hate what you are seeing so much, stop watching. It is really that simple.

If you hate what you are reading so much why don't you stop reading?

You can always start a positive comments only thread somewhere

Seriously there are a lot of us who have been watching this show for years and are disappointed with the way the mystery part of the show is being handled at the end.

I don't think for most of the problem is that it not the answered how we personally wanted but that the answers are not consistent with what
was presented in the past and the answers are often vague and/or incomplete.

Of course we are not going to stop watching we are going take what answers we can get but yeah were going to express our opinions and
point out when a concept make no sense.

I realize a lot of you out there don't really care about the mystery you
just want to know whether Kate winds up with Jack or Sawyer but some us feel since the show devoted so much time the pseudo science and mystical that maybe they would clear that up too

zonker
05-12-2010, 09:34 PM
And I don't care in the slightest that the answers given were'nt spelled out, like how a wheel could channel the light, because its science fiction, there is literally no explination, it cannot happen, so just enjoy it.
The only thing I wanted to see which I didn't was the statue in the process of being built.


I don't really need the technical specs on the wheel either but I would like to know how MiB knew how to build it and what was propelling the Island through time and space and able to effect people off the Island. Just calling it the "Source" (Is Darkseid Smokey) is not going to cut it.

zonker
05-12-2010, 09:40 PM
[I]"
It's easy to see that Jack and Jacob are filling parallel roles: both are reluctant to accept their fate as Protector. As we see in "Lighthouse," Jacob thoroughly understands what Jack is going through and seems to understand what it will take for Jack to reach the right conclusion. Their names are even similar, which I doubt is coincidental.

But there is one big difference, Jacob was told he had know choice, if Jack is being groomed to be his replacement Jacob seems to be very concerned that Jack makes the choice willingly

Smokey Crew
05-12-2010, 09:41 PM
i hated the fact that most of the questions were answered like this:

Mother: I made it so you can't hurt each other

Mother: I made it so you never have to experience that [death]

Mother: I made it ...

so on so forth, just really crappy storytelling tbh.

Drink Dharma Beer
05-12-2010, 09:54 PM
I guess Darlton are rewarding those fans who have faith. Everyone else just wants to go home at this point...

reAaaallyLost
05-12-2010, 10:02 PM
I guess Darlton are rewarding those fans who have faith. Everyone else just wants to go home at this point...

Not just faith, BLIND FAITH... Like Jacob.. We are naught but Pawns in their chess game of money making ingenuity.. (Kinda Evil really..) But I will suck it up and reserve judgment for "the end" - Who knows, I have already been rewarded with last nights Ep :D There may be greater rewards to come! (if not, glad I did not fork out for series yet! ;))

Hurley
05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
Despite how each of us may be feeling with the direction and speed with which things are going, I think that TPTB have to try and give the viewers as much closure as they can. Look at it this way. If they burn a huge chunk of ABC/Disney's viewers with a decidedly bad ending, are any of us ever going to get hooked on another Lindelof/Cuse series again? Probably not. TPTB know this and (if they aren't) they really should be considering the future.

Currently I am not 'happy' with where we are and only 3 1/2 hours to go. But I am hoping against hope that they can wrap it up satisfactorily. I definitely ain't expecting answers to every bit of minutia, but I do expect more than what I have gotten to date. Just my .02.

Mr Miser
05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed overall at first viewing last night but after a rewatch this afternoon I found what I hope is the case with this episode.

Someone made a comment somewhere referencing puzzle pieces found that we didn't know we needed or where they go-something to that effect. I'm hoping that this is accurate.

A couple of tidbits I found really interesting after my rewatch:

It seemed stressed that MiB jr mentions 'when you make your own game, you can set the rules...'. Especially after the the rage face MiB makes, with game in hand, finding his village burnt down and well filled in. To me, that scene marked the end of MiB's game and the beginning of Jacob's. So that leads me to believe that everything we have witnessed in the original timeline is ALL due to Jacob. It is his game, the parameters just haven't been fully disclosed.

Sure that doesn't explain the nature of the island itself but I don't think that was the intended purpose of this episode, well... ... I hope anyways.

Again, this may be me just wanting to believe the episode wasn't a total failure but it seems as though both Jacob and MiB exhibit qualities of the Losty candidates or vice versa (Hugo/MiB jr seeing dead people is the obvious one).

The Adam and Eve reveal was mediocre for me. It answered a question from S1, sure, but only to find out it's really not relevant in the overall scheme of things. Seemed like a 'throw them a bone' type deal and unnecessary given its validity.

Again, maybe I'm reaching but I'm hoping that answers have been presented to us before the situations that create questions have. It would be the only redemption for this episode.

kintrell
05-12-2010, 10:27 PM
Smoke and Mirrors

Personally I think Armageddon is going to be Sept 13 2024 at 11:36:12 am

Wow, not point at you, but to everyone involved in this battle of twits. Geez its a freaking show

Besides I doubt either one of you have the balls to say things like this face to face. The wonder of Intwa-Net

BTW, I got the balls, test me


its comments like this that make me think armageddon HAS TO BE SOON, if for no other reason than to rid us of ourselves.

m8o
05-12-2010, 10:32 PM
I don't see why this episode couldn't have been shown in a previous season, it doesn't really explain anything. It's a backstory. The fact that they didn't show it earlier means there isn't much more to tell between that time and the present, which means the writers don't really have any explanations.

This show is turning into a poorly scripted Asian movie. There's this great premise and the story is unfolding nicely, but all of a sudden there's aliens or monsters coming out of nowhere and strange explanations that don't make any sense. Everything comes really fast and furious at the finish and you're left wondering what happened? Did the script writer quit? Did he develop a drug habit?

They had some decent themes running, hints of religious themes, some interesting concepts like time travel, but then they blew it up. It's like if they did a movie about Moses, and halfway through the Klingons come and blow up Egypt and the manna from heaven is Soylent Green and Moses travels back in time, Donnie Darko style, to a past where he fights the Transformers and Godzilla, but then you find out Moses is actually dead! The movie would end with Jack being in charge of the Israelites and Joshua injured his dural sac while fighting the Canaanites. Um, often folks write 'LOL' but in actuality all they did was smile. ... me, I literally LOL'ed! :D

m8o
05-12-2010, 10:55 PM
To anyone who watched the 1st two seasons of Eureka.... did you like this ep?

q1000
05-13-2010, 12:08 AM
I understand why there is disappointment. I was disappointed with the fact that more wasn't revealed. I think in the end that this was the reason most didn't enjoy this episode.

Another reason that people are disappointed is the way that this series began. It was new different and spectacular. It seems to me that the high expectations were bound to make some disappointed.

If you really hate what you are seeing so much, stop watching. It is really that simple.

I enjoyed the episode although it was certainly not my favorite this season.

I have a feeling that the last episode is going to be spectacular, but maybe I shouldn't set myself up for a big disappointment.

The thing that made this show really great was they mystery, the questions. Now that its ending, they are answering the questions and mysteries, which takes away from what the show was. It built up the mystery so much, there was no possible way it could live up to what the fans wanted. I'm not impressed this season, seems like a lot of filler episodes, like they are just buying time till the final episode. It reminds me of the final season of Soprano's, but I hope lost has an epic ending, and not just fade to black. lol

kylemr87
05-13-2010, 12:28 AM
All in all....I think the concept of the episode and the things that it stood to explain were all good. However, I think that it could have been revealed in a much better way and still kept the ambiguity that was being upheld.

I think it would have been much better to have the light come from an already existing well and when Jacob was angry and threw the MiB into the water he could have instead pushed him into the well. Just my opinion.

I am hoping some of the ideas presented in this episode will be expounded upon much deeper in the last episodes....

BigEasyE
05-13-2010, 12:33 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, haven't taken the time to read all of the posts, but the game that Jacob and Smokey were playing looks like the Egyptian game Senet. I wonder if this ties into the date that that episode is supposed to have happened?

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet

Quick quote from that Wiki link:

"By the time of the New Kingdom in Egypt (1567–1085 BC), it had become a kind of talisman for the journey of the dead. Because of the element of luck in the game and the Egyptian belief in determinism, it was believed that a successful player was under the protection of the major gods of the national pantheon: Ra, Thoth, and sometimes Osiris."

With how this series has evolved, this seems to fit with the good/evil and life/death aspects.

Three Dog Night
05-13-2010, 12:41 AM
And I don't care in the slightest that the answers given were'nt spelled out, like how a wheel could channel the light, because its science fiction, there is literally no explination, it cannot happen, so just enjoy it.

I think one of the things that's been appealing about Lost through the seasons is that it has alternately been science fiction and fantasy. Good science fiction tries to stay as close to known or speculative science as possible. The time travel, parallel universes, and so on has made a decent effort (IMHO) to follow a style of decent science fiction.

On the other hand, fantasy stories are full of mythical beings, magic powers and artifacts, and so on. There isn't even an attempt to be logical about why things work the way they do because it's all magic.

Lost has blended science fiction with a mythology and magic, and generally did so effectively by limiting the number of magic wands they throw in. Last night's episode, however, seemed to abandon even maintaining a thin veil of science and was nothing but magic. Magic light, magic potions, magical people, magic black smoke...

That (plus some weak acting and poor storytelling ... also IMO) was what was disappointing about the episode for me. Not that it was a total failure. There were some aspects to it that I liked. As cheesy as the special effects were with the golden light, I kind of liked MiB's directing the others from the ship to dig to find sources of magnetism, leading to finding the light and constructing the FDW.

The other mistake in the show was, I think, fitting the entire Jacob versus MiB story into a single episode. It would have worked better if they'd have built up to the background over a few episodes, like they did for the main characters in the first couple of seasons, through a series of flashbacks. The way they did it last night, they just basically handed us a bunch of answers to long-standing mysteries all at once.

Three Dog Night
05-13-2010, 12:54 AM
9 - Love what a couple of people have said about the Pulp Fiction references. If we can buy light in a briefcase, surely we can buy light in a cave on an island, right?

The reference that keeps coming to my mind is Kill Bill, with all the coy avoidance of letting the audience know the name of a key character.

BeatrixK
05-13-2010, 01:25 AM
I'm 99.9% convinced that LOST, the title, is not about being unable to find one's direction, and more about 'not winning a game'. Last night's episode pretty much sealed it for me.

I'm not thrilled with the overall direction of this season, and am becoming increasingly worried that the ending will end up being like a very disappointing internet meet/date, where you have these amazing long conversations/email echanges with someone over weeks/months, then finally meet in person, and not only is their picture a LOT different than what they look like in person, but they have really bad breath and have lied about 40% of the time they've talked to you or something...But, I hope for the best.

(And if they even THINK of answering all this crap in the super-delux-mega-edition-boxed-DVD-set-which-includes-a-6-pack-of-Dharma-Beer, I won't buy it! OK...I'll buy it on like, Ebay...at a deep discount...)

Ruthie
05-13-2010, 01:35 AM
A very good episode loaded with mythology. It contained strong writing overall, but the acting in the first half seemed stilted, taking away from what should have been engaging dialogue. Few episodes warrant a re-watch in my book, and this is one of them. Doing so is important because my Spidey-senses are telling me that many of the elements seen in Across the Sea will be woven into the final 3 episodes to tie up most of the loose ends.

Scruff
05-13-2010, 02:09 AM
Anyone else think Alison Janney sucked in this episode. Probably a greating casting choice on paper but I thought she was absolutely terrible in this episode, I don't think she understood the significance of the role she was playing.

I think when they cast Mark Pellegrino they got what was no doubt a difficult part to cast given Jacob's importance completely right, and to be fair I think they've always gotten it right but they'd have been much better served casting someone else rather than relying on the assumed weight Janney would bring to the role.

Jeremy Spoke
05-13-2010, 02:16 AM
Just a couple of things as well...

Was it Jacob breaking a rule i.e. hurting MIB that fused MIB to Smokie? and is this why MIB tries not to break the rules as he fears creating another Smokie or something else as powerful as himself?

What exactly is stopping MIB from leaving? is it another rule i.e. Jacob and all the candidates must be dead and if so did Jacob himself make up that rule. Jacob has left the island many times leaving MIB on the Island doing whatever he wanted.

Also does one of the Losties now have Jacob's special powers but they just aren't aware of it? or do they need a special drink to be the new Island protector.

Not sure Jacob broke a rule. On a technicality he did nothing wrong. MIB lite floated in. He mourned MIB;s death. If he broke a rule he would have felt guilty. As a boy he was portrayed as a rule keepe, mama's boy , etc. The endearing hug he gives mib pre smoke plus giving him the game pieces back makes me think he was sad he did a work around, not sad he killed him

Jeremy Spoke
05-13-2010, 02:18 AM
I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed overall at first viewing last night but after a rewatch this afternoon I found what I hope is the case with this episode.

Someone made a comment somewhere referencing puzzle pieces found that we didn't know we needed or where they go-something to that effect. I'm hoping that this is accurate.

A couple of tidbits I found really interesting after my rewatch:

It seemed stressed that MiB jr mentions 'when you make your own game, you can set the rules...'. Especially after the the rage face MiB makes, with game in hand, finding his village burnt down and well filled in. To me, that scene marked the end of MiB's game and the beginning of Jacob's. So that leads me to believe that everything we have witnessed in the original timeline is ALL due to Jacob. It is his game, the parameters just haven't been fully disclosed.

Sure that doesn't explain the nature of the island itself but I don't think that was the intended purpose of this episode, well... ... I hope anyways.

Again, this may be me just wanting to believe the episode wasn't a total failure but it seems as though both Jacob and MiB exhibit qualities of the Losty candidates or vice versa (Hugo/MiB jr seeing dead people is the obvious one).

The Adam and Eve reveal was mediocre for me. It answered a question from S1, sure, but only to find out it's really not relevant in the overall scheme of things. Seemed like a 'throw them a bone' type deal and unnecessary given its validity.

Again, maybe I'm reaching but I'm hoping that answers have been presented to us before the situations that create questions have. It would be the only redemption for this episode.

Try a rewatch? have a feeling that this was a setup episode where you had to know the past to understand what comes next. Just a thought.

LostINZ
05-13-2010, 04:00 AM
I'm 99.9% convinced that LOST, the title, is not about being unable to find one's direction, and more about 'not winning a game'. Last night's episode pretty much sealed it for me.

I'm not thrilled with the overall direction of this season, and am becoming increasingly worried that the ending will end up being like a very disappointing internet meet/date, where you have these amazing long conversations/email echanges with someone over weeks/months, then finally meet in person, and not only is their picture a LOT different than what they look like in person, but they have really bad breath and have lied about 40% of the time they've talked to you or something...But, I hope for the best.

(And if they even THINK of answering all this crap in the super-delux-mega-edition-boxed-DVD-set-which-includes-a-6-pack-of-Dharma-Beer, I won't buy it! OK...I'll buy it on like, Ebay...at a deep discount...)

Actually the show has always had double meanings. Lost is mostly about how the individuals are Lost 'emotionally'. Not just lost geographically.


First half was incredibly lame, with awful acting and piss poor dialogue. Once Jacob and his brother grew up it was a bit better. But still very frustrating that the "answers" we're being given are barely answers at all. Some examples:

* There's a magic light, but what is it?
* Getting thrown in to the light made Jacob's brother turn in to a smoke monster... um.. but why?
* How did Jacob's mother know what she knows about the light and protecting it?
* Is she actually just as clueless about it as Jacob?
* Was she just crazy?
* Where did she get the power to bury the FDW, kill all those people, and make Jacob immortal?
* How does controlling the water and the light with the FDW let the MIB leave? Or does it even?
* Did hanging out with the other survivors of the shipwreck make the MIB evil or was he evil from the start?




1. It is the same light that we saw when the FDW was turned twice and when the Losties flashed. MIB and his people built a timemachine around it. Other people who came later finished the job by putting the donkey wheel on the axis before corrupting then killing each other. We don't know how long and how many groups would have had to visit to finish it, but that's not important for now. As Darlton said in the post ep interview, they wanted to impress the idea of history repeating itself. Therefore we can assume that all the groups that came subsequently did some of the work. We first knew the place to be underneath the Orchid. Ergo, the light is exotic matter. What is exotic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_matter)?

Exotic matter is a hypothetical concept of particle physics. It covers any material which violates one or more energy conditions or is not made of known baryonic particles. Such materials would possess qualities like negative mass or being repelled rather than attracted by gravity. It is used in certain speculative theories, such as on the construction of wormholes. The closest known real representative of exotic matter is a region of pseudo-negative pressure density produced by the Casimir effect.

The term can also refer to material composed of some form of exotic atom.
(you wanted your midichlorians shaken not stirred?)

Apart from time travel what properties does it have?

Read this (http://www.physorg.com/news172225206.html):

Ivanov, from both the University of Cambridge and the Lebedev Physical Institute in Moscow, has analyzed this possibility in a study accepted to Physics Letters B. The idea is that a one-dimensional exotic fluid, whose unique properties such as violating the weak energy condition in particle physics, leads to a scenario in which there is a light cone with regions of negative and positive total energies. Hence the importance of the Swan and the Orchid. The swan provided the positively-charged electromagnetism. It was built immediately below that spot where MIB threw his knife.

When combined with electromagnetism: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism)

Electromagnetism is the force responsible for practically all the phenomena encountered in daily life (with the exception of gravity). Ordinary matter takes its form as a result of intermolecular forces between individual molecules in matter. Electromagnetism is also the force which holds electrons and protons together inside atoms, which are the building blocks of molecules.

2. I'm trying to find information I found on thought photography two seasons ago, but I've failed so far. Basically electromagnetism can record thoughts through a cloud of smoke. That's an oversimplified explanation. I'll try to find the detailed one. But yeah the exotic matter and electromagnetism can account for pretty much everything on the show. You see the writers have left a lot of interpretation up to us. There is a scientific explanation as well as an alchemic version. In alchemy alchemists tried since ancient times to find the philosopher's stone. It's a myth of course. But it was said to produce an elixir of life. How can I say it's alchemy? Well many signs in Jake's foot: saltpetre, the fire, the jars(in the cabin). But the most provocative sign was in the whisper transcript when Hurley approached Jake's cabin:

Man: "Come to me, I need you. You're an alchemist and uh..."
Woman: "I need-"
Man (Sounds like Christian Shephard): "Sarah, Is somebody coming?"
Woman: "They must be coming, you-"
Man: "Hush! One of these-"
(Shushing- shhh, shht!)
Woman: "Richard!"
Man: "Come with us."
Woman: "Here's the recipe."
Man: "Oh thank you, I thought I'd lost-"

I think it reasonable to assume that Jacob was given the elixir of life by Mother then later gave it to Richard when he arrived.


3. History repeats. Her predecessor knew. Their predecessor knew. It's always been there. Hawking said that these pockets of energy were all over the world. But the island was a bit more special. It's a natural phenomenon.

4.Yes she knows as much as Jacob, nothing more.

5.Isolating yourself from everyone on the island must make one a little stircrazy if we look at Rousseau and Claire as examples.

6.She killed the whole village. Who on this show ever had the power to do that? The Smoke Monster. Yes, she has a smoke monster too. The water flowing from the light carried a life-extending elixir. Remember the light is life, death, rebirth.

7.Well Ben and Locke showed us-it's the time machine.

8.Try not to think of it as evil. Think of it as corruptible. Yes he became tarnished.

tomlevine1
05-13-2010, 04:31 AM
So we are all in agreement now yes?
MIB ain't all that bad, and Jacob ain't all that good.

...The island has to go.

http://www.electricyouniverse.com/eye/thumbs/lrg-1082-sarychev-peak-matua-island-eruption-plume-cap-strange-kurile-islands-space-photograph.jpg

Scruff
05-13-2010, 04:34 AM
So we are all in agreement now yes?
MIB ain't all that bad, and Jacob ain't all that good.

...The island has to go.

http://www.electricyouniverse.com/eye/thumbs/lrg-1082-sarychev-peak-matua-island-eruption-plume-cap-strange-kurile-islands-space-photograph.jpg

Seems that way.

tomlevine1
05-13-2010, 05:46 AM
Here's the vidclip of the boar-killer, Jacob: "Who are they?"
Someone we know, or just another poor stiff that ended up on the island?


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c029ad5fb0.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Scruff
05-13-2010, 05:57 AM
no one I recognise.

lostfan2009
05-13-2010, 06:23 AM
humm i actually forgot that MiB is dead. he was not the evil one, what became smoky is the true evil, antagonist of the show that we know. but i don't see why they can't kill each other??? no rules were ever explained to us. from what i saw there is no reason smoky can't kill Jacob. did i miss something?

I just don't agree that MIB is dead. His BODY is dead but his spirit has been transformed into the black smoke creature. We don't have any reason to believe that smokie existed prior... I think MiB's spirit may have been turned INTO smokie. What I learned from this episode is that MiB is not evil so much as he's just supremely frustrated and supremely desperate to get off the friggin' island. At this point he has nothing left to lose. He's been trying for hundreds of years to leave.

Maybe because his body wasn't buried, that's why he could always take his original form. Remember when Illana said "he's trapped in this form" now after they buried Locke's body? Somehow burying the original body has prevented him from leaving that form. However he still talked about his crazy mother... not the crazy mother of some previous form-host. Whereas when he talks about Locke, it's definitely in the third person.

m8o
05-13-2010, 06:52 AM
So we are all in agreement now yes?
MIB ain't all that bad, and Jacob ain't all that good.
...The island has to go.

Seems that way. Yet noone seemed to be of like mind and replied in my thread where I said putting the island to the bottom of the sea is looking pretty good right now. :p (tho admittedly, the impetus for that was a bit different; I had Mr. Potato Hed's angry-eyes on.)

lostfan2009
05-13-2010, 07:24 AM
But there is one big difference, Jacob was told he had know choice, if Jack is being groomed to be his replacement Jacob seems to be very concerned that Jack makes the choice willingly

Hmmm, disagree. Jacob was told he had no choice, but he still had to take the cup and drink it. Jacob wants to make sure Jack understands that JACK has no choice, that Jack is the only person who can do what is required -- so that Jack will "take the cup" so to speak. They are VERY parallel.

Even more parallel -- it SHOULD have been MIB. it SHOULD have been Locke. But it wasn't, and so here we are.

GeorgeIsLost
05-13-2010, 07:32 AM
This will be my final theory of this once great show (that's before this last episode aired):

How this show is ending makes no sense. And I think that's just it. There is no rhyme or reason, there is no one on the island except for one sole individual, who probably is the sole survivor of a shipwreck or plane crash and is now a hermit/castaway. He/she has invented, made up this whole island story in his head...maybe from trying to stay sane, or that's just it, since he/she is alone, he/she has "lost" his/her mind...hint hint, "LOST".

The reason why I came up with this theory is because it is the only, and hear me well, the only theory that can make sense up to this point.

Reminds me of a cross between the movies Identity (with John Cusack) and Castaway (with Tom Hanks). Cross both movies and you get a guy who survived a disaster and is now stuck alone on an island and has lost his mind, making up characters in his head and killing them off one by one to determine who he really is. And yes, I do believe the DriveShaft song "You ALL Everybody" was a BIG clue in this show.

Folks, if this theory of mine is in fact the way this show will end, I will be content up to this point. But this is not how I initially expected the show to end prior to season 5. Lets see what happens next...see you all everybody after it all ends.

sdorian
05-13-2010, 07:37 AM
re: GeorgeisLost

has lost his mind, making up characters in his head and killing them off one by one to determine who he really is.

I really like this. Maybe not as an ending to Lost, but as it's own thing. You should totally write this story! (and let me know when you do because I'll read it. :))

ManoGil
05-13-2010, 08:34 AM
Why did they start speaking english all of a sudden?

The point (like in 99% of American movies) was just to show that they spoke a different language - Latin in this case - just to give us an idea of time and origin of the people. But them they revert to English so the audience doesn't have to spend the whole episode reading subtitles.

markb455
05-13-2010, 08:37 AM
Check out the symbols on the game.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markgs455/4603503294/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1021/4603503294_5a933f2b3f_o.jpg

sdorian
05-13-2010, 08:43 AM
Hmmm, disagree. Jacob was told he had no choice, but he still had to take the cup and drink it. Jacob wants to make sure Jack understands that JACK has no choice, that Jack is the only person who can do what is required -- so that Jack will "take the cup" so to speak. They are VERY parallel.

Even more parallel -- it SHOULD have been MIB. it SHOULD have been Locke. But it wasn't, and so here we are.

maybe because Jacob felt he had no choice, he wanted to make sure everyone else had a choice

aref
05-13-2010, 09:46 AM
BULLSHIT!!!
I regret watching this crap!!!!!!!!!!!!

did we watch 6 seasons to get to this shit?!!!!!!
can't believe it!!