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Thread: 2x12 Fire + Water

  1. #11
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    I actually felt really connected to this episode for the first time. I obviously don't agree with everything Charlie did, but I can sympathize with him trying to win back Claire's trust, and Claire not being interested.

    I remember after this episode first aired, it was funny that all of the survivors were angry with Charlie, but all of the fans were angry with Locke. I still think Locke should have heard Charlie out after all the dream-following Locke does himself.

    I thought it was interesting that Charlie's mom told him in his dream that the baby was in danger. This echoes Richard Malkin's prediction that great danger surrounds this baby. I wonder if this will ever pay off. Season 6 will tell.

  2. #12

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    I agree zeus22. Ifelt sorry for Charlie too. The one I hated in this episode was Locke. He beat Charlie for absoultely no reason. It seemed to me that Locke was antagonizing Charlie the whole episode. He turned the camp against him.

    Charlie was having crazy dreams that he didn't understand. They terrified him about Aaron's safety. He went to Eko who told them they meant Aaron need baptized. But when he tried to tell Claire this she didn't want to listen. No one had any compassion for Charlie including Jack.

    When Locke had his crazy dream it lead to Boone's death. But the entire camp didn't turn against him.
    Then after the mistrust and doubt she has for Charlie, what does Claire do she has Eko baptize Aaron. All she had to do was take the time to listen and not judge Charlie and none of this would have happened. Makes you wonder who or what is causing the dreams.

  3. #13
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    More observations about Locke in this episode:

    (1) He's awfully interested in the kids. Now that Walt is gone he turns his attention to Aaron for no discernable reason.

    (2) Just last episode he asks Jack "Who are we to tell anyone what they can or can't do?" Now he's making Charlie's decision for him? This is the kind of thing that really turned me against Locke.

    (3) If Locke really doesn't want Charlie to do any heroin, why does he keep the statues?

    So frustrating. I also wonder (futiley) why Libby lies about the institution. If she remembers Hurley from there and takes to him so quickly on the island, you'd think she had a "thing" for him that dates back to then. Sure wish they had followed through with her character.

    Creeped out by the baptism stuff. Sorry.

    I'm curious if Charlie's visions will turn out to be related to Locke's visions, or anyone else who has had dreams that affected their actions on the island.
    I like that Charlie's mom says "someday you'll get us all out of here," and "you can't save us if you don't play." It seems like they really made an effort to have that pay off in the S3 finale (would anyone but Charlie have been able to tap out the notes to "Good Vibrations"?).

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chameleon View Post
    More observations about Locke in this episode:

    (1) He's awfully interested in the kids. Now that Walt is gone he turns his attention to Aaron for no discernable reason.

    (3) If Locke really doesn't want Charlie to do any heroin, why does he keep the statues?
    i would wager that his interest in kids stems from his own messed up childhood, and a need to see children happy.

    as for the heroin, i would be looking at a number of reasons here... one, it may be a reminder to him of the sacrafices he made to get where he is; two, it might be just the reason he says, and have some spiritual/thereputic value; three, he might see a medicinal use for the heroin.

    or i could be totally wrong. this IS john locke.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hailey View Post
    i would wager that his interest in kids stems from his own messed up childhood, and a need to see children happy.

    as for the heroin, i would be looking at a number of reasons here... one, it may be a reminder to him of the sacrafices he made to get where he is; two, it might be just the reason he says, and have some spiritual/thereputic value; three, he might see a medicinal use for the heroin.

    or i could be totally wrong. this IS john locke.
    Sure, that could be the case (about the kids), we've seen it with Ben, but John is always doing things for his own benefit, or what he percieves to be the benefit of the island. It just seems fishy to me that the Others were after kids and Locke seems to have his own interest in them. But I could be reaching.

    As for the heroin, I'd completely forgotten about his upcoming "therapeutic" line or the fact that they give some to Libby. Thank you, rewatch!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DharmaVan View Post
    Not sure why a lot of fans hate this episode. Other than the diversion from the main plot thread, I didn’t find it so bad at all.

    The whole episode nicely played up the Lost redemption theme throughout. “Save us, Charlie!” This is what Charlie would eventually attempt to do in warning about the freighter people.

    I liked the imagery of the psychedelic lucid dreams/hallucinations. Were these induced by the Man In Black to give Charlie a little push into using drugs again or was it Jacob and/or the Island pushing to get baby Aaron baptized? Not sure myself on this but the end result was the baptism of Aaron – perhaps an important spiritual addition to Aaron’s specialness I hope to see played out in the final season.

    Another curious thing I noticed in this rewatch was when Hurley recognizes Libby from somewhere (i.e., from the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute). It seems, from her body language, that she knows this and awkwardly averts the question claiming he recognizes her from the plane instead of the hospital.
    Nice write-up!

    I think one of the main reasons I really like this episode is because I like when a TV show can get you to hate your favorite character.

    I don't think Charlie was using, and I think there's an unknown significance in his visions, however the way he reacted so impulsively about them was completely out of line.

    I'm warming up to Locke as I re-watch the series, but for awhile I despised him. This is one episode where I was like, "Damn, Locke is pretty cool."

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chameleon View Post
    More observations about Locke in this episode:

    (1) He's awfully interested in the kids. Now that Walt is gone he turns his attention to Aaron for no discernable reason.
    I Disagree. Walt always went up to locke, not the other way around. Besides he has always shown Claire and aaron some compasion. Hell, he made crib for the kid and considering the fact that he was one of the few that knew Charlie was Druga addict, It makes perfect sense that he'd have an eye on the baby to make sure everything's ok


    (2) Just last episode he asks Jack "Who are we to tell anyone what they can or can't do?" Now he's making Charlie's decision for him? This is the kind of thing that really turned me against Locke.
    Well, he was a drug addict that was freightening a mother and her new born not to mention taking him a couple times and taking him to the ocean to do god knows what. Again, Locke knew Charlie was a drug addict and had to keep him in check for everyone's safety

    (3) If Locke really doesn't want Charlie to do any heroin, why does he keep the statues?
    Because Charlie has to do this on his own, aren't you the one criticizing Locke for trying to tell him what to do, yet you judge him for not taking them away..??

    ---

    This is the only Lost episode I skip whenever I rewatch the series. THe only Episode I don't watch when it's on syndication. SIASL is bad but at least it's watchable..

  8. #18

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    I didn't like this episode because I was sick of watching him being tempted by heroin... that storyline had already been played out. This episode made it almost impossible to like Charlie, or Claire, or Locke, and I did not enjoy an episode where I could cheer for or feel for no one.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_nyy View Post
    Because Charlie has to do this on his own, aren't you the one criticizing Locke for trying to tell him what to do, yet you judge him for not taking them away..??
    Because it smacks of manipulation, in a very Ben-like way, I'd add. He makes a big show of putting Charlie down, beating him pretty hard, and yet keeps the very object that is causing the conflict: Charlie's heroin. And frankly I was never a fan of Locke's pompous "helping" Charlie in season one, with the "ask me three times" business. It's just Locke making sure that he is controlling other people, especially the ones he percieves to be weaker than he is (his relationships with Boone and Charlie are controlling ones, while he sucks up to Sayid, tries to get Jack on his side, etc.). In any event, some people like Locke more than others, and obviously I have some issues with the character, so there's no point in belaboring it.

    Meanwhile, the comment about Aaron and Walt was just a bit of curiosity: did Locke have some Others-like tendencies early on? Your explanation is more practical and thus more likely the correct one, though.

  10. #20

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    I was just watching the "Anatomy of an Episode" feature on the DVD on "Fire+Water" and the actor who played Locke raised the point that Locke's overreaction wasn't just anger at Charlie, maybe he was angry because he thought he had "cured" Charlie in "The Moth". In the episode before, Locke was starting to feel guilty about teaching Michael how to shoot and then Michael ran off, so maybe in this episode, Locke took his residual anger and guilt on Charlie.

    Locke has always had the sense that he had the moral high ground, so in that sense, he was like an Other and was well suited to be their leader. It irked me a little when Locke called Sawyer "James", like he had a right to. And how he expected everyone to push the button at the beginning of the season, but once he no longer believed in it, he was willing to shut Eko out (not seeming to care if Eko and Charlie died from the dynamite), to prove his point that the button meant nothing.

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