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  1. #21
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    Just dropping by to a add a few things to what Richard Was here said:

    1. In "The Life and Death Of Jeremy Bentham", Widmore tells Locke a war is coming to the island, "And if you're not back on the island when that happens, the wrong side is going to win." When Locke arrives back to the island (Dead), MIB is able to take his form and manipulate Ben to murder Jacob, making Jacob "The wrong side" in Widmore's eyes.

    2. In "Dead is Dead" Widmore sent Ben and Ethan to kill Danielle. Now, who attacked the French crew and caused most of them to die? Smokey. It's most likely that Smokey is either MIB, or working for MIB. The fact that Widmore sent them to kill the only survivor makes it seem as if he's finishing Smokey's work. Later, he orders Ben to murder Alex, calling her an "It." When Ben asks "Is killing this baby what Jacob wants?", Widmore is surprisingly silent.

    3. Widmore is the most hostile Other we've ever seen. When he was only 17, he wanted to cut off Juliet's hand for no reason. He also murdered one of his own people, which is a serious crime in the eyes of The Others. He shows a hatred of outsiders that arrive to the island, which is something he shares with The Man in Black.

    4. Simply from a story-telling standpoint, Widmore has been built up as an antagonist for far too long. I know they've pulled it before, but revealing him as a "Good Guy", making the conflict between himself and The Losties simply another misunderstanding, like with The Others, would feel cheap to me. They've made a point of showing Ben and The Others' redeeming qualities as early as S3. Widmore has appeared on the show since S2, and he's shown absolutely no redeeming qualities. In fact, each appearance has made him look worse. Damon Lindelof has called him the show's "Big Bad", on the "Constant" DVD commentary. However, with the reveal of MIB, he seems too "Small" to be the Main antagonist, therefore, it seems like a compelling idea to me that he's been working for The Main Antagonist all along.


    Thanks to jska108 for the signature.


  2. #22
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    A further possible reason why Widmore might be connected with MIB is that Bram is specifically positioned in opposition to Widmore (as seen during his confrontation with Miles in "Some Like It Hoth"), and Ilana was connected with Jacob in "The Incident" when he visits her in the hospital. They are clearly working together, and identify themselves as "the good guys" and (paraphrasing) "the team that's gonna win." That pits Bram/Ilana/Jacob vs. Widmore/MIB.

    From "Some Like It Hoth":

    BRAM: Sorry about that, but your apartment's being watched. And we had to try our best to talk you out of working for Charles Widmore.
    ...
    BRAM: You're playing for the wrong team!
    MILES: Yeah? What team are you on?
    BRAM: The one that's gonna win.

    From "The Incident":

    LAPIDUS: I wish you'd never showed me what was in this damn box. What
    the hell you gonna do with it anyway?
    ILANA: We need to show it to somebody.
    LAPIDUS: What for?
    ILANA: So they'll know what they're up against.
    LAPIDUS: What exactly are they up against?
    BRAM: Something a hell of a lot scarier than what's in this box,
    Frank. Don't worry, though. As long as you're with us, you're fine.
    LAPIDUS: That's be reassuring if I knew who you were, "friend".
    BRAM: We are the good guys.
    ...
    JACOB: I'm here because I need your help. Can you do that? Will you help me, Ilana?
    ILANA: Yes.

  3. #23
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    Did anyone notice how Daniel doesn't bat an eyelash about Miles' "ghost-whispering" abilities?

    MILES: We just walked over a fresh grave.
    FARADAY: What?
    MILES: Four U.S. soldiers, dead just under a month. Three of them were shot. One died of radiation poisoning.
    FARADAY: Miles, hey, hey. Did any of them happen to mention what year it
    is?

    And Juliet is aware of Richard's apparent agelessness. "Richard's always been here." Always, or just since 1845 like many believe? I also thought the way he tells Daniel he has to follow a chain of command was kind of interesting. Is it possible that Mr. X is on this chain of command (or was at some point), or is he just referring to the leader of the Others and Jacob? I think I'm just reading too much into every single line.

    I'm also wondering why Richard says that info on how to get off the island is "very privileged information" especially if they don't want people on the island. Is it a "if I told you I'd have to shoot you" situation -- once people know about the island they're not allowed to leave? I'm also thinking the fact that Locke disappeared right in front of him would have encouraged him to believe that fact that Locke was indeed special and worth looking into. In fact, could Locke's appearance here, and to Ethan later on, be in part responsible for Cindy's line ("They're excited you're here. They've been waiting for you.") way back in season three ("The Brig")?

    Why does Widmore have a Dharma-themed painting in his office when we know he was once leader of the Others? Irony? Or is there some as-yet-unrevealed connection between the Others and the Dharma Initiative?

    Finally, why doesn't Daniel have a British accent?

  4. #24
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    ^ Excellent posts, guys. I was hoping someone would turn up with more on the Widmore issue, since I only posted what popped into my head at the time.

    Those are all excellent points.
    Art by CharlieBowtie

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chameleon View Post
    Did anyone notice how Daniel doesn't bat an eyelash about Miles' "ghost-whispering" abilities?

    MILES: We just walked over a fresh grave.
    FARADAY: What?
    MILES: Four U.S. soldiers, dead just under a month. Three of them were shot. One died of radiation poisoning.
    FARADAY: Miles, hey, hey. Did any of them happen to mention what year it
    is?
    Frankly, I just put it down to Faraday's perpetual preoccupation without really thinking about it at the time. But you do have a point. Although they were on that freighter for a while...maybe they spoke about their 'jobs' on the science team.

    Which sort of brings up another point. Why would Miles have been on that team anyway? Why did they need a ghost-whisperer? I get why Faraday and Charlotte were good choices for a science team...but since when is ghost-whispering a 'science'?? And what ghosts was he supposed to be whispering to? Ghosts of the Dharma dead? The 'semi-dead' characters like Christian?

    Thoughts?


    And Juliet is aware of Richard's apparent agelessness. "Richard's always been here." Always, or just since 1845 like many believe? I also thought the way he tells Daniel he has to follow a chain of command was kind of interesting. Is it possible that Mr. X is on this chain of command (or was at some point), or is he just referring to the leader of the Others and Jacob? I think I'm just reading too much into every single line.
    I think Richard's chain of command is the Leader of the Others and Jacob. I just don't see MIB working in cooperation with Jacob on anything.

    As for Richard's agelessness...well, originally I was squarely in the 'Richard Came on the Black Rock' camp...but now I'm not so sure. Juliet is not normally one to exaggerate...and she said "always". And 'always' certainly sounds like earlier than 1845.

    Still, that conversation between Jacob and MIB on the beach is troubling....to me, they were agreeing that no one who had turned up so far had lived up to their standards - 'it's always the same thing with these guys' (paraphrased) sounds to me like no one had impressed them as of that point in time. But with the Black Rock out on the Ocean....my thought was that Richard was on that boat...and turned out to be very different than anyone who had turned up on the island previous to him.

    Bottom line: I'm on the fence on this one. Still leaning toward The Black Rock...but am very much prepared for the possibility that he arrived much earlier.

    I'm also wondering why Richard says that info on how to get off the island is "very privileged information" especially if they don't want people on the island. Is it a "if I told you I'd have to shoot you" situation -- once people know about the island they're not allowed to leave? I'm also thinking the fact that Locke disappeared right in front of him would have encouraged him to believe that fact that Locke was indeed special and worth looking into. In fact, could Locke's appearance here, and to Ethan later on, be in part responsible for Cindy's line ("They're excited you're here. They've been waiting for you.") way back in season three ("The Brig")?
    I think the assumption is that if you know how to leave, you also know how to come back, at least within a certain window before the island moves (as Eloise described at the Lamp Post). My guess is that Richard's belief is that anyone who stayed on the island belonged there and would (at least eventually) not want to leave because it was their destiny...and anyone who they banished or otherwise forced to leave? Such persons they would not want to ever come back.

    Just a guess though.


    Why does Widmore have a Dharma-themed painting in his office when we know he was once leader of the Others? Irony? Or is there some as-yet-unrevealed connection between the Others and the Dharma Initiative?
    Knowing him? He probably keeps it as a souvenir to remind him that the DI is no more. He's just that twisted and power-hungry.

    Nah...seriously...I kinda wonder about this too...but I don't believe Widmore is hooked up to any remnant of the DI...at least not at this point.


    Finally, why doesn't Daniel have a British accent?
    No idea, since Eloise has a British accent. Widmore is played by an Aussie or Kiwi actor, I believe...and to me he sounds more Aussie than British...
    Last edited by Richard Was Here; 12-23-2009 at 01:51 AM.
    Art by CharlieBowtie

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Was Here View Post
    Which sort of brings up another point. Why would Miles have been on that team anyway? Why did they need a ghost-whisperer? I get why Faraday and Charlotte were good choices for a science team...but since when is ghost-whispering a 'science'?? And what ghosts was he supposed to be whispering to? Ghosts of the Dharma dead? The 'semi-dead' characters like Christian?

    Thoughts?
    I'm waiting until we find out more about the walking dead on the island. Since Widmore sent these people and presumably knows more than we do about what's really going on, I assume he knew Miles' unique talent would be important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Was Here View Post
    I think Richard's chain of command is the Leader of the Others and Jacob. I just don't see MIB working in cooperation with Jacob on anything.
    I like to think that MIB/Jacob are more closely related than we think, despite their clear opposition to one another, so I'm kind of digging without knowing what I'm talking about. MiB was living in Jacob's house, wasn't he?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Was Here View Post
    I think the assumption is that if you know how to leave, you also know how to come back, at least within a certain window before the island moves (as Eloise described at the Lamp Post). My guess is that Richard's belief is that anyone who stayed on the island belonged there and would (at least eventually) not want to leave because it was their destiny...and anyone who they banished or otherwise forced to leave? Such persons they would not want to ever come back.
    I don't know, I think it's pretty clear that even if the island didn't move since you left it, the chance you'd be able to get back on the right bearing without having your mind go kersploink is pretty slim, but I think there are a lot of probable reasons for not letting just anyone go, and at that point Richard didn't really know who the hell Locke was.

    sorry, this was kinda half-thought out as I have to run. please continue discussion in my absence!

  7. #27
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    I really enjoyed this episode. It gave us some background into the lives of Eloise and Charles as young teens on the island and showed us how important they both were in the group of the Others. I would love to know how they came to the island themselves but I'm not sure if we will ever get that story.

    We got to see a whole new type of courageous Desmond with the love of Penny to support him. He has a family now and actually tries to listen to Charles advice about disappearing again but Penny knows him well and realizes that Desmond will have to finish this journey of finding Eloise. I also think we will see Desmond back on the island again since we got that line from Penny asking him to promise to never go back to the island. The island isn't done yet with Desmond and whether or not he "believes", I'll bet he will be back once again.

    I'm sure Daniel is just trying to protect Charlotte from the truth but I found it hard to watch him keep reassuring her that everything is all right. Why not just be honest and tell her! Then after all that, he confesses his love and that is when she supposedly drops dead from the latest time flash!

    My favorite part of this episode was seeing young Eloise in control. She has a much different approach than Charles and it's not surprising why Richard favors her over Charles. Charles is the intense, hormonal teenager who is trying to prove his worth to Richard as a leader but it is Eloise, as I predicted when I first watched the episode, that is the one with true leadership skills. I knew the moment she walked out of the jungle with the rifle and her band of Other guys that she was in charge of that group! Eloise says, "Once we leave here, I will be out of control of what happens to you but if you cooperate now, things will go much easier for you."

    Cunningham was a newly selected, U.S. Army man for the Others.Was he on the list? The Others took the clothes of these people and that is why I see them using the items that are always left by those who venture onto the island. We know they used bow and arrows before the Army came, well now they have rifles to use. One thing that bothers me is that Jacob supposedly doesn't like technology but why then do the Others keep taking this technology and using it against any invader to their island? This really contradicts what TPTB keep telling and showing us.

    Charles is also confusing. We see that as a young man he wants to prove his abilities as a leader. He even kills Cunningham when Cunningham decides to trust Juliet, Sawyer and John and uses this as his means of escape. I loved how he dismisses John as some old man but then we see that John knows exactly how to find them! I also see contradiction in what Penny says about him and how Charles reacts. She warns Desmond to not underestimate him and if Charles finds out they have come back to England then she's not sure what he'll do. But then when Desmond bursts into his office, Charles is almost cordial and seems surprised at Desmond's new found courage. He is only concerned for Penny's safety which he should be with Ben lurking around off the island!! The real person that Des and Pen should be concerned about is not Charles but Ben. Charles even tries to warn Desmond to take his family and hide once again!

    Another example of Charles not fitting the "bad guy" image is his treatment of Theresa. Yes, he did fund Daniel's study of time travel as we saw later on but he also helped out the person who was hurt by it too. Abigail Spencer certainly didn't hate Charles Widmore from what we hear her say. Daniel was a disappointment to her because he abandoned Theresa which was sort of funny because that is what Desmond had done to Penny too! She tells Desmond that Mr. Widmore took responsibility for the results of his research and nowadays you don't find too many big corporations doing that. I am still leaning towards Charles doing the right thing and not being the "big, bad guy" in the end.

    I think the Latin clue is important. This is a connection point between the Others and the use of Latin. Juliet mentioning the fact that they are "the Enlightened" is actually sort of interesting since one of the definitions of it is a movement of people from the 18th century that question traditional doctrines and has a tendency towards individualism and an emphasis on the idea of universal human progress. Sounds exactly what Jacob was talking about on the beach.

    I also thought that Richard sort of relaxed when Daniel claims they were only scientists. The fact that they were "men" of science seemed to calm him down a bit. I love how Richard is so honest compared to what we always heard from Ben. Richard seems to relish the truth and those who give it seem to have an edge with him. Juliet acts like she knows Richards story and I sure hope TPTB give it to us finally in season 6!

    The bomb Jughead was okay but for anybody who knows about bombs, the whole idea was a lot of sci fi ideas. This is TV though, and TPTB have to write a good story to make it interesting!

    John gets another visit with Richard and we get the idea now of the cycle that happened of Richard's visit to see baby John. Of course, there is that wonderful compass story line too! I am still waiting for them to show us also how the heck these Others leave and come back to the island because I really don't think it is by the use of the FDW.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob'sWiseOldMother View Post
    I'm sure Daniel is just trying to protect Charlotte from the truth but I found it hard to watch him keep reassuring her that everything is all right. Why not just be honest and tell her! Then after all that, he confesses his love and that is when she supposedly drops dead from the latest time flash!
    Because that's what men who haven't got a good set of social skills (like Daniel) do. Better to lie than face the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob'sWiseOldMother View Post
    We know they used bow and arrows before the Army came, well now they have rifles to use. One thing that bothers me is that Jacob supposedly doesn't like technology but why then do the Others keep taking this technology and using it against any invader to their island? This really contradicts what TPTB keep telling and showing us.
    Is it Jacob who objects to the use of advanced technology or someone else? That example actually fits into my growing belief that these Others who are following Jacob are more like members of a cult or a religious communities that adheres to standard of living with less advanced technology, such as the Amish or the cults in which people don't use plumbing or electricity. That is not so much to keep themselves pure as it is to keep the adherents under the control of their totalitarian leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob'sWiseOldMother View Post
    Charles is also confusing. …
    I think of one of the wonderful things about Lost is that the heroes and villains are no so clear cut. They are complex and compromised. They have significant character flaws. That fits reality better. After all, King David, the brilliant leader of the ancient Israelites to whom Jesus is compared to as a leader, is also the same man who sent one of his top military leaders into battle because he knew he would be killed and that would give David access to his wife. That's premeditated murder. David got off the hook from his people but not his God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob'sWiseOldMother View Post
    I think the Latin clue is important. This is a connection point between the Others and the use of Latin. Juliet mentioning the fact that they are "the Enlightened" is actually sort of interesting since one of the definitions of it is a movement of people from the 18th century that question traditional doctrines and has a tendency towards individualism and an emphasis on the idea of universal human progress. Sounds exactly what Jacob was talking about on the beach.
    And yet they are kept at a subsistence level of living and never allowed to see Jacob or grow in any significant way. Again I go back to my contention that whoever is calling the shots for the Others is actually selling them a bag of goods on who they are and how they should live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob'sWiseOldMother View Post
    I also thought that Richard sort of relaxed when Daniel claims they were only scientists. The fact that they were "men" of science seemed to calm him down a bit. I love how Richard is so honest compared to what we always heard from Ben. Richard seems to relish the truth and those who give it seem to have an edge with him. Juliet acts like she knows Richards story and I sure hope TPTB give it to us finally in season 6!
    I think Richard, like Charles and Ben (and King David) isn't such a wonderful person, but he might fulfill his role well as an adviser. But he's like all the rest — complicated. He might not act as badly simply because all the reasons to do so have been removed.




  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Fan 4815162342 View Post
    Because that's what men who haven't got a good set of social skills (like Daniel) do. Better to lie than face the truth.



    Is it Jacob who objects to the use of advanced technology or someone else? That example actually fits into my growing belief that these Others who are following Jacob are more like members of a cult or a religious communities that adheres to standard of living with less advanced technology, such as the Amish or the cults in which people don't use plumbing or electricity. That is not so much to keep themselves pure as it is to keep the adherents under the control of their totalitarian leader.

    I think of one of the wonderful things about Lost is that the heroes and villains are no so clear cut. They are complex and compromised. They have significant character flaws. That fits reality better. After all, King David, the brilliant leader of the ancient Israelites to whom Jesus is compared to as a leader, is also the same man who sent one of his top military leaders into battle because he knew he would be killed and that would give David access to his wife. That's premeditated murder. David got off the hook from his people but not his God.



    And yet they are kept at a subsistence level of living and never allowed to see Jacob or grow in any significant way. Again I go back to my contention that whoever is calling the shots for the Others is actually selling them a bag of goods on who they are and how they should live.

    I think Richard, like Charles and Ben (and King David) isn't such a wonderful person, but he might fulfill his role well as an adviser. But he's like all the rest — complicated. He might not act as badly simply because all the reasons to do so have been removed.
    Thanks for all the interesting comments Lost Fan. One of the theories I have is that Richard Alpert is actually working/helping the MIB instead of Jacob. Now, whether or not Ben is privy to this arrangement is the real question. The scene between fake Locke, Ben and Richard at the beach camp of the Others during "Follow the Leader" got me to thinking about this. Ben and Richard seem to have this pact between them that prevents anyone else having any interaction with this "leader". So if Ben wasn't ever in contact with Jacob then was he just pretending the whole time...conning the Others...or was the MIB behind it all? This could explain why the Others are being kept so much in the dark and wonder who this supposedly "Jacob" leader really is. Of course, it's sort of funny that fake Locke turns out to be the MIB in the end! Richard certainly didn't know this and it was possibly the MIB conning Richard and Ben at the same time. Either Richard really "thinks" Jacob is the leader or he is using this con on the Others because that is what the MIB wants from him. This is why Richard's story will be so important to finally giving us the answer to what happened to him...longevity and possibly even what happened to young Ben when Richard took him from Kate and Sawyer. Could both Richard and Ben have "sold their souls" for whatever was given to them in the past?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob'sWiseOldMother View Post
    Thanks for all the interesting comments Lost Fan. One of the theories I have is that Richard Alpert is actually working/helping the MIB instead of Jacob. Now, whether or not Ben is privy to this arrangement is the real question. The scene between fake Locke, Ben and Richard at the beach camp of the Others during "Follow the Leader" got me to thinking about this. Ben and Richard seem to have this pact between them that prevents anyone else having any interaction with this "leader". So if Ben wasn't ever in contact with Jacob then was he just pretending the whole time...conning the Others...or was the MIB behind it all? This could explain why the Others are being kept so much in the dark and wonder who this supposedly "Jacob" leader really is. Of course, it's sort of funny that fake Locke turns out to be the MIB in the end! Richard certainly didn't know this and it was possibly the MIB conning Richard and Ben at the same time. Either Richard really "thinks" Jacob is the leader or he is using this con on the Others because that is what the MIB wants from him. This is why Richard's story will be so important to finally giving us the answer to what happened to him...longevity and possibly even what happened to young Ben when Richard took him from Kate and Sawyer. Could both Richard and Ben have "sold their souls" for whatever was given to them in the past?
    I am so eager to know what is the deal there as well. You could argue all kinds of POVs, but there is a persistent notion for me that Richard might not be Jacob's biggest fan. For the reason that Jacob granted Richard eternal youth, or at least froze him in time, and if that dates to the Roman era (based on their use of Latin) then he's been like that for almost 2,000 years. By now the novelty and buzz would have worn off, and it could begin to feel like a curse. So there might be some resentment and he might be easily persuaded by the MIB to do his bidding. And didn't Ben, who seems to have access to Smokey, say that that comes at a terrible cost? I still can see that this could all lead into the scenario in which all the people, or most of them, band together to rebel against Jacob, MIB, Smokey and whatever other entities are on the island for possession of the island and their own destiny.




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